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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 684
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I tell my staff is to vocalize the encounter yell, "drop the knife". or "stop hitting me."
This alerts other staff that you need help,
keeps you breathing,
articulates to witnesses what is going on,
and the guy might stop.

Witnesses are notoriously wrong about what they see. This gives you a chance to tell them.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
It depends where you are. Sadly it also depends on the race, age and gender of those involved. Life is not always fair


Well as I pointed out in my original post, I used the example of two grown men both in college and no weapons are involved. So for age and gender that's covered, two males who are of the typical age that college students are, late teens to early twenties. I didn't mention anything about race as its not fair to add race into the equation but for sake of discussion lets say they're both white men.


Last edited by XtremeTrainer on Tue May 08, 2018 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JazzKicker wrote:
As the saying goes, Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


I agree but what the way I see it, why should somebody even be tried by 12 just because they refused to be carried by 6? Why punish somebody for refusing to be a victim?
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
How did he unintentionally do it? Did the man stumble and run into his fist or something?


Its possible for a single punch to kill depending on how its thrown, where it lands, ect. You could punch somebody and your stars could just happen to line up correctly, or incorrectly depending on how you want to look at it, and your punch ends up killing the person.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
It depends where you are. Sadly it also depends on the race, age and gender of those involved. Life is not always fair


Well as I pointed out in my original post, I used the example of two grown men both in college and no weapons are involved. So for age and gender that's covered, two males who are of the typical age that college students are, late teens to early twenties. I didn't mention anything about race as its not fair to add race into the equation but for sake of discussion lets say they're both white men.


When I referenced location, I meant country, and I'm particular legal jurisdiction and local 'attitudes'.

This becomes very relevant for race and gender as sadly the concept of equality hasn't reached round everywhere yet.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27502
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Meeting Force With Force Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
Now, lets say Im in a situation such as this. Im a grown man and Im attacked by a grown man. Lets say we're both grown men in college and we're roughly the same size. He attacks me first and I fight back. We both don't have any weapons and I stop once I stop him. The way I see it, I shouldn't get in trouble since I didn't do anything excessive. A grown man is equal to another grown man, bare hands is equal to bare hands, and I stopped once I stopped him.


After this is all said and done, the talking and articulation begins. This is what will likely make or break you in the eyes of law enforcement. But it depends on the agency and who you get.

What could happen is you get detained for a time, explain your side of what happened, they hear the other side of what happened, and then they decide who, if anyone, goes to jail. Or, citations could just be issued, and you have to come to court. It just depends. Having good witnesses always helps.

What could also happen is that cops show up, see two guys fighting, and they step in and arrest both parties. Then you get to go to the station to write up your statement. Hopefully, there are some witnesses they get statements from that corroborate your side of the story, and you come out without charges.

Here's a third scenario. No cops are involved, so you avoid that aspect of it. But they guy you fought ends up going to the hospital and gets treated for injuries, however serious, and then wants to try to stick you with the bill. If there is nothing criminal being filed, he's likely to come after you in civil court, at which point you're looking to hire an attorney and have to pay those fees to defend yourself in a whole new fashion.

So, there are a few scenarios to mull over. If you have further questions on one or more, please ask away.
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: Meeting Force With Force Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
Now, lets say Im in a situation such as this. Im a grown man and Im attacked by a grown man. Lets say we're both grown men in college and we're roughly the same size. He attacks me first and I fight back. We both don't have any weapons and I stop once I stop him. The way I see it, I shouldn't get in trouble since I didn't do anything excessive. A grown man is equal to another grown man, bare hands is equal to bare hands, and I stopped once I stopped him.


After this is all said and done, the talking and articulation begins. This is what will likely make or break you in the eyes of law enforcement. But it depends on the agency and who you get.

What could happen is you get detained for a time, explain your side of what happened, they hear the other side of what happened, and then they decide who, if anyone, goes to jail. Or, citations could just be issued, and you have to come to court. It just depends. Having good witnesses always helps.

What could also happen is that cops show up, see two guys fighting, and they step in and arrest both parties. Then you get to go to the station to write up your statement. Hopefully, there are some witnesses they get statements from that corroborate your side of the story, and you come out without charges.

Here's a third scenario. No cops are involved, so you avoid that aspect of it. But they guy you fought ends up going to the hospital and gets treated for injuries, however serious, and then wants to try to stick you with the bill. If there is nothing criminal being filed, he's likely to come after you in civil court, at which point you're looking to hire an attorney and have to pay those fees to defend yourself in a whole new fashion.

So, there are a few scenarios to mull over. If you have further questions on one or more, please ask away.


You make some good points. When involved in a physical confrontation the police might or might not be involved and criminal charges might or might not be pressed as well as civil charges. But the fact of the matter is, if you hurt somebody you do have to own up to it and you do have to answer for it. Depending on how badly you hurt them, you could very well end up in court. My principle is not to attack innocent people and not to go picking fights but if a grown man gets physical with me I will respond with physical force and usually to a much greater level than if its a woman or child. I would also like to point out that if my assailant has the name Christopher that should give me more of a right to use force and hopefully I should be able to use that in court to my favor. I wouldn't want it to come to that but if somebody else insists on having a physical confrontation I will deal with them as I should.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Meeting Force With Force Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
Now, lets say Im in a situation such as this. Im a grown man and Im attacked by a grown man. Lets say we're both grown men in college and we're roughly the same size. He attacks me first and I fight back. We both don't have any weapons and I stop once I stop him. The way I see it, I shouldn't get in trouble since I didn't do anything excessive. A grown man is equal to another grown man, bare hands is equal to bare hands, and I stopped once I stopped him.


After this is all said and done, the talking and articulation begins. This is what will likely make or break you in the eyes of law enforcement. But it depends on the agency and who you get.

What could happen is you get detained for a time, explain your side of what happened, they hear the other side of what happened, and then they decide who, if anyone, goes to jail. Or, citations could just be issued, and you have to come to court. It just depends. Having good witnesses always helps.

What could also happen is that cops show up, see two guys fighting, and they step in and arrest both parties. Then you get to go to the station to write up your statement. Hopefully, there are some witnesses they get statements from that corroborate your side of the story, and you come out without charges.

Here's a third scenario. No cops are involved, so you avoid that aspect of it. But they guy you fought ends up going to the hospital and gets treated for injuries, however serious, and then wants to try to stick you with the bill. If there is nothing criminal being filed, he's likely to come after you in civil court, at which point you're looking to hire an attorney and have to pay those fees to defend yourself in a whole new fashion.

So, there are a few scenarios to mull over. If you have further questions on one or more, please ask away.


You make some good points. When involved in a physical confrontation the police might or might not be involved and criminal charges might or might not be pressed as well as civil charges. But the fact of the matter is, if you hurt somebody you do have to own up to it and you do have to answer for it. Depending on how badly you hurt them, you could very well end up in court. My principle is not to attack innocent people and not to go picking fights but if a grown man gets physical with me I will respond with physical force and usually to a much greater level than if its a woman or child. I would also like to point out that if my assailant has the name Christopher that should give me more of a right to use force and hopefully I should be able to use that in court to my favor. I wouldn't want it to come to that but if somebody else insists on having a physical confrontation I will deal with them as I should.


I've read and re-read this but still don't understand the significance of the name Christopher. Is there an inside joke here or what am I missing?
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 957
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: Meeting Force With Force Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
...I would also like to point out that if my assailant has the name Christopher that should give me more of a right to use force and hopefully I should be able to use that in court to my favor....


I've read and re-read this but still don't understand the significance of the name Christopher. Is there an inside joke here or what am I missing?


Perhaps some people find folks with that name more trustworthy, as it's derived from Christ?
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1673

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basing any self-defense decision on names sounds like a lot of foolishness. There are many, many much more important things to consider when defending oneself than the attacker’s name if one even knows it.
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