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Lupin1
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1632
Location: Texas USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Men Hitting Women Reply with quote

This is less legal politics and more societal politics, but it came up in my Isshinryu class last night.

Maybe it's because I'm getting used to Judo where half-committed moves can lead to injuries, but I've found myself being a lot more deliberate with my partner work in my karate class. Last night we were working an application and I delivered a solid (not hard or fast) hit to the shoulder of the Nidan I was working with. He started whining about it and the instructor said I'm allowed to hit him hard but he can't he me hard back (again, it's wasn't that hard-- it was just solid contact). At first both of us thought it was because he was a black belt and I'm a 4th kyu and he started saying once I get my brown belt he'll be able to go hard with me, too, and get me back but the instructor stopped him and said it had nothing to do with rank and that women are allowed to hit men as hard as we want because we're more likely to be attacked and need to know we can hit full strength, but men can't hit women hard and that if a woman were to attack him, he should try to use some of the Aikido moves we learn to stop her rather than hitting her. It then disintegrated into a weird conversation about being attacked by female body builders on steroids, but I'm not sure I like the "women can hit men as hard as they want but the men can't hit back" philosophy. I want to train the same as the guys in the class (I'm the only adult female) and I don't like having special rules. I'm tough and show a lot less pain than the guys in the class when I'm uke, so I could probably take it better than them. Opinions?
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evergrey
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Posts: 734

Styles: kyokushin

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd feel really insulted by that, to be honest!

When I first came to my dojo, they had this silly "women can only be hit in this certain spot on the stomach above the belt" rule. Yeaaaaah riiiiiiiight!

I fought and fought and now my Shihan is on my side, and he'll chew out anyone who refuses to hit me with power when we're doing conditioning. Yessss... to become a strong fighter and able to handle myself in a fight, including in a real fight where I'm defending myself, I need to learn how to take a hit! It isn't enough just to hit someone hard... in a real fight, you're probably going to get hit, too.

I have an article I've been thinking about sharing here. I'm due to write one. Maybe I will share this one!
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"If you can fatally judo-chop a bull, you can sit however you want." -MasterPain, on why Mas Oyama had Kyokushin karateka sit in seiza with their clenched fists on their thighs.
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blacknebula
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 28 Jun 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all here is some perspective: I am also a woman. I am also 4th kyu. There are 3 other ladies in my dojo, but all shodan/nidan so if I am doing the intermediate class I end up sparring with the guys. In my dojo, no contact is allowed until 5th kyu. After that light, non-head contact is allowed but only if Sensei explicity says so. Example - person A attacks, person B blocks and counters, person A is not supposed to block the counter. Person B is expected to touch solidly but not plow Person A. On the rare occasions when I accidentally make harder contact than I was supposed to I apologize to my partner. If they do it to me they also apologize.

My opinion: If my Sensei said that I was allowed to hit the guys harder than they are allowed to hit me I would be disturbed by that. Whatever level of contact is the norm for your style/association/dojo, then that should be the expectation for everyone regardless of gender. Having said that though, I really don't have any advice on the best way to handle this situation. Perhaps after I think about it for a bit I will post more.
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evergrey
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Posts: 734

Styles: kyokushin

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My response is actually sometimes, with really hard to crack cases, to hit them hard enough times that they lose patience and hit hard back. And when I grin and say "GOOD ONE" instead of acting like a victim, they realize it's okay, and relax and treat me like "one of the guys." You have to get your instructor on board for that, though, or that person will get in trouble when they are actually showing you respect as a fighter and a martial artist!
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"If you can fatally judo-chop a bull, you can sit however you want." -MasterPain, on why Mas Oyama had Kyokushin karateka sit in seiza with their clenched fists on their thighs.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the sentiment of evergrey.

For me, women, just as much as men, know what they're getting into and should be ready to be hit hard. the OP's sensei is wrong in the sense that getting hit as hard as possible is something that will happen on the street and by not allowing his students to do that he's hurting the education of every woman that steps inside of that dojo.
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andym
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 487

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very relative subject, in my experience, only a few women are prepared to be on the receiving end and want equal treatment. In the old Dojo, we used to have psycho's corner, inhabited by by myself and those who wanted to play rough, some girls came to visit. Even then the rick of injury to a women, caused a toning down. Sub-consciously or deliberately. That said, what's the Dan grade crying off for ?
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28168
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are several issues at work here. One, is what many young boys are taught when growing up by their fathers, "never, ever strike a woman." After years of drilling, that tends to stick, and it can be hard to go back on it, even in a training setting. And I don't view it as a sexist thing, but as one of the old-fashioned gentlemanly things. Two, is that not all women want to be treated like guys. So, you have to shake out who it is ok to thump on, like Ev, and who it isn't, and who will complain.

With all that said, I do think that women in the training environment should be playing along the same rules as everyone else in the dojo, whatever those rules are. But, easier said than done.
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many guys mistakenly believe a woman isn't a threat to them, hence part of the problem.

Ladies - teach them the hard way!
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evergrey
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Posts: 734

Styles: kyokushin

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
Many guys mistakenly believe a woman isn't a threat to them, hence part of the problem.

Ladies - teach them the hard way!


One positive thing about training with a lot of LEOs- I ask them "oh, so you've never had a woman on meth come at you with a knife?"

"Ohhhh yeah, good point!"

Hehe!
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"If you can fatally judo-chop a bull, you can sit however you want." -MasterPain, on why Mas Oyama had Kyokushin karateka sit in seiza with their clenched fists on their thighs.
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A law enforcement related article ya'll might find interesting that is relevant to this topic:

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/1877110-Female-suspects-They-CAN-hurt-you/
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