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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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I kind of agree with the sentiment, but to pick up on semantics, krav maga having been mentioned, krav maga isn't a style. I suppose anyone who has ever had a fight is qualified to teach it, because it's not a style. It just means something like 'close combat'. But semantics aside, yes I agree.
But there's another side to it (I don't sell it by the way). My own observation is that in any class, you will find a small number of martial artists, and a much larger number of people subscribing to a fantasy. The minority look for details. They have a thirst for knowledge. They question everything. They want to test things and experiment. Whereas the majority I believe want the next belt, maybe a few trophies. They want to boast to their friends that they know a hundred different ways to break an arm. They want to believe they could fight 10 attackers, provided the attackers wait for a signal and then step forward with a straight right handed punch, or grab their wrist then wait patiently for the signal to dive.
Trouble is, you can't sell to these people something like 'fantasy ninja seminar' so that all the real martial artists know to save their money, because the fantasy ninjas themselves believe they want the real thing. And that's fine. Life should be fun. But it does add an interesting challenge to the real martial artist when trying to decide with limited budget and time, which seminars to attend and which to ignore. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder, why do you think that Krav Maga is not a style? |
Because it's not formalised as one. It's quite literally close combat. There is no lineage of former masters that dictated what it means. It's literally just the Israeli army close combat. Every army has its way of training for the eventuality that a soldier mat fund himself unable to fire a gun to neutralise an enemy. They all call that part of training various things like unarmed combat, combatives, hand to hand combat etc. The Israelis call there's krav maga, which just means something like close combat in their language. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder, why do you think that Krav Maga is not a style? |
Because it's not formalised as one. It's quite literally close combat. There is no lineage of former masters that dictated what it means. It's literally just the Israeli army close combat. Every army has its way of training for the eventuality that a soldier mat fund himself unable to fire a gun to neutralise an enemy. They all call that part of training various things like unarmed combat, combatives, hand to hand combat etc. The Israelis call there's krav maga, which just means something like close combat in their language. |
Everything that I've every read about Krav Maga has all of the trappings of a MA style:
*A belt ranking system
*A plethora of techniques
*A lineage that dates back to the 1930's
*A founder
To name just a few of a styles trappings.
No, it doesn't have the formalities that many styles of the MA do have, but imho, those trappings take away its effectiveness, and therefore, concentration is not on it's effectiveness, but in the decorations that belong to a style.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Last edited by sensei8 on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone can hang a shingle. It doesn't impart skill. I've lived in these circles long enough to see people sell themselves as something they aren't. Sadly, those people tend to do well it seems.
Teach what you can teach, let the others teach what they want. Don't claim to be what you aren't and don't be afraid to call out those who are crossing the line. Use some diplomacy if you have to, but tell the truth. I guess that is where I differ from a lot of others, I'm to the point where I'm willing to call people out on certain things.
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Kisshu fushin, Oni te hotoke kokoro. A demon's hand, a saint's heart. -- Osensei Shoshin Nagamine |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ShoriKid wrote: |
Anyone can hang a shingle. It doesn't impart skill. I've lived in these circles long enough to see people sell themselves as something they aren't. Sadly, those people tend to do well it seems.
Teach what you can teach, let the others teach what they want. Don't claim to be what you aren't and don't be afraid to call out those who are crossing the line. Use some diplomacy if you have to, but tell the truth. I guess that is where I differ from a lot of others, I'm to the point where I'm willing to call people out on certain things. |
Solid post!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder, why do you think that Krav Maga is not a style? |
Because it's not formalised as one. It's quite literally close combat. There is no lineage of former masters that dictated what it means. It's literally just the Israeli army close combat. Every army has its way of training for the eventuality that a soldier mat fund himself unable to fire a gun to neutralise an enemy. They all call that part of training various things like unarmed combat, combatives, hand to hand combat etc. The Israelis call there's krav maga, which just means something like close combat in their language. |
I agree with your definition of the words Krav Maga, but it is very much still a style. It may not follow with the same kinds of traditions and lineages of Eastern styles, but it is definitely a style.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder, why do you think that Krav Maga is not a style? |
Because it's not formalised as one. It's quite literally close combat. There is no lineage of former masters that dictated what it means. It's literally just the Israeli army close combat. Every army has its way of training for the eventuality that a soldier mat fund himself unable to fire a gun to neutralise an enemy. They all call that part of training various things like unarmed combat, combatives, hand to hand combat etc. The Israelis call there's krav maga, which just means something like close combat in their language. |
I agree with your definition of the words Krav Maga, but it is very much still a style. It may not follow with the same kinds of traditions and lineages of Eastern styles, but it is definitely a style. |
It is a style in the sense that it is characterised by extremism violence and the determination and ability to enact extreme violence by any means. That's as far as it goes in terms of being a style.
What it most definitely is though, is martial art. Possibly far more so than formal styles that are misleadingly referred to as martial arts.
My reasoning on the latter point is this. The term martial art comprises 2 words. The first, martial, means pertaining to war. The second, art, is often misunderstood. In modern use, art is often taken to refer to aesthetics, but an older and still valid meaning of art is skill set. Therefore martial art means war skill.
Krav maga is a martial art. It is a skill set for fighting in a non civilian role. It is not self defence. It is not for competition. It is for breaking an enemy's body when you end up either too close to shoot or otherwise unable to use more conventional warfare.
Ironically, most martial arts are not martial arts. They are styles though. Practitioners can be judged and graded based on their ability to show specific techniques or forms. But they are not martial arts. They are not war skills. OK, many started off that way, hence the term, but have not been martial arts for a long time.
That'd not to criticise any of them. Or their practitioners or enthusiasts. I make no judgement. It's just how it is.
But I will concede on one point. Krav maga is now a popular term in civilian circles. Gradings will no doubt happen in civilian clubs, and no doubt somebody has taken elements from other systems to incorporate under the name Krav maga. That doesn't make it Krav maga though, unless in those civilian clubs they're encouraged to eye gouge and grab testicles and hit each other in the face with the butt of a rifle and otherwise do whatever they can to subdue one or more opponents. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'd disagree that Krav Maga is not self-defense, because I've trained and used aspects of Krav Maga for self-defense and for defensive tactics. I can kind of see how what you mean when you reference "styles," but I don't really agree with it.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder, why do you think that Krav Maga is not a style? |
Because it's not formalised as one. It's quite literally close combat. There is no lineage of former masters that dictated what it means. It's literally just the Israeli army close combat. Every army has its way of training for the eventuality that a soldier mat fund himself unable to fire a gun to neutralise an enemy. They all call that part of training various things like unarmed combat, combatives, hand to hand combat etc. The Israelis call there's krav maga, which just means something like close combat in their language. |
So based on your definition Karate before the Japanese took it and made it what it is today is not a style but rather just close combat. So close combat makes it what?
Too many view fighting as a long distance engagement when this couldn't be further from fact. All fights end up in close quarters and turns into close range strikes, clinches, grappling, submissive/controlling techniques or throws. Just because Krav Maga has these elements it's not a style? What then is Judo, Jujitsu, or a 100 more styles/arts.
If it teaches one to fight effectively then it's an martial art and thus is constituted as a style.
I have never taken Krav Maga (so I'm no expert) but I have watched it in a few seminars and I just looked it up on google and to be honest I'm not sure why you are saying it's not a style.
Like Sensei8 points out it basically has the makings of every style I've ever taken. Whether its an all around effective art or not, well... I'll leave that to those that study it. But style or no style? I think it's a style.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
