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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is interesting to note that London just passed New York's murder rate.

And that is amid the big push to "Save a Life, Turn in a Knife".
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6125
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
DWx wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
Spodo Komodo wrote:
In the UK there is little point in learning to use firearms or knives, you just won't have them with you when you need them. Sticks, La Canne, Bo, Sai and Tonfa all have techniques that can be applied to things that might well be to hand. The more simple the weapon the more it can be applied to other situations. Firearms and blades have specific techniques with limited transference (well, moreso for firearms than blades) but something that can be used to strike, trap, trip, lock and jab will always have currency.


I do know they're very restrictive with firearms in the UK but knives too? Will you get in trouble for carrying a knife? Even if you don't carry a knife I would think you can keep knives in your house so a knife might be a good weapon for home defense in the UK.

Now depending on where you are in the UK, in Scotland I believe they play lots of golf so carrying around a golf club might not be out of the ordinary. A golf club can obviously be used for stick fighting.


I think the law is pretty fair in the UK. It's all about intent. Folding blades under 3 inches are fine i.e.pocket knife but for anything else you better have a good reason to be carrying it. Anything you carry with the intent of using it as a weapon could land you in trouble. Even if it was for self defense. The UK Police are pretty clear about this

https://www.police.uk/crime-prevention-advice/possession-of-weapons/
"If you are caught illegally carrying a knife or a gun, even an imitation one you will be arrested and prosecuted. It is no excuse to say it was for your own protection or you were carrying it for someone else.

Remember - the law is clear - if you choose to carry a weapon, you put your future in danger. If you don't take it with you, it won't be used."

Interestingly kubotan are also specifically mentioned in the Offensive Weapons Act so you couldn't even have one of those in your key chain for defense.

As to the original question, I would say you wouldn't go far wrong with something like Arnis or Eskrima. Seems applicable to the types of improvised weapons you may be able to obtain.


And see, to me this law is anything BUT fair. Self defense is a fundamental human right and the state choosing to say that it is not a sufficient reason to carry an object with you is essentially endorsing the idea that it is more important to do as your told by the state than to adequately prepare for potential violence.

Which I suppose is fine if there is no violent crime in the U.K.
I don't really know the stats... but this doesn't look good.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/04/suspected-burglar-dies-tussle-pensioner-78/

The fact that they arrested him at all is a bad look for U.K. law and law enforcement.

I think it's different cultures. On the whole violent crime is lower in the UK compared to the US. Just look at the stats: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime

According to the figures per million people, you are 4 times more likely to be murdered in the US compared to the UK. I think we just have a different attitude to self defense and violent crime, I mean it's very unusual for our police officers to be armed and is actually pretty shocking to most of us when we do see armed officers.

As to that story about the pensioner.. I don't know the specifics but I would imagine there is more to the story than is in the news. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" to defend yourself so the arresting officers must believe he has gone beyond that.

LLLEARNER wrote:
It is interesting to note that London just passed New York's murder rate.

And that is amid the big push to "Save a Life, Turn in a Knife".

Not to scream "Fake News" but the BBC's Reality Check fact checker has some interesting statistics on this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43628494

Yes London had higher murder rates for February and March this year vs New York but actually not that much higher (e.g. 22 vs 21 in March). In January the figures were very much the opposite with the NYPD investigating 18 murders, compared to 8 in London. All in all New York is slightly worse taking into account the whole of 2018 so far.

Looking at the whole year, homicide rates for 2017 in London were significantly lower taking the full 12 months into account, you were 3x more likely to be murdered in New York in 2017. (1.2 per in 100 000 London and 3.4 in New York).
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Tempest wrote:
DWx wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
Spodo Komodo wrote:
In the UK there is little point in learning to use firearms or knives, you just won't have them with you when you need them. Sticks, La Canne, Bo, Sai and Tonfa all have techniques that can be applied to things that might well be to hand. The more simple the weapon the more it can be applied to other situations. Firearms and blades have specific techniques with limited transference (well, moreso for firearms than blades) but something that can be used to strike, trap, trip, lock and jab will always have currency.


I do know they're very restrictive with firearms in the UK but knives too? Will you get in trouble for carrying a knife? Even if you don't carry a knife I would think you can keep knives in your house so a knife might be a good weapon for home defense in the UK.

Now depending on where you are in the UK, in Scotland I believe they play lots of golf so carrying around a golf club might not be out of the ordinary. A golf club can obviously be used for stick fighting.


I think the law is pretty fair in the UK. It's all about intent. Folding blades under 3 inches are fine i.e.pocket knife but for anything else you better have a good reason to be carrying it. Anything you carry with the intent of using it as a weapon could land you in trouble. Even if it was for self defense. The UK Police are pretty clear about this

https://www.police.uk/crime-prevention-advice/possession-of-weapons/
"If you are caught illegally carrying a knife or a gun, even an imitation one you will be arrested and prosecuted. It is no excuse to say it was for your own protection or you were carrying it for someone else.

Remember - the law is clear - if you choose to carry a weapon, you put your future in danger. If you don't take it with you, it won't be used."

Interestingly kubotan are also specifically mentioned in the Offensive Weapons Act so you couldn't even have one of those in your key chain for defense.

As to the original question, I would say you wouldn't go far wrong with something like Arnis or Eskrima. Seems applicable to the types of improvised weapons you may be able to obtain.


And see, to me this law is anything BUT fair. Self defense is a fundamental human right and the state choosing to say that it is not a sufficient reason to carry an object with you is essentially endorsing the idea that it is more important to do as your told by the state than to adequately prepare for potential violence.

Which I suppose is fine if there is no violent crime in the U.K.
I don't really know the stats... but this doesn't look good.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/04/suspected-burglar-dies-tussle-pensioner-78/

The fact that they arrested him at all is a bad look for U.K. law and law enforcement.

I think it's different cultures. On the whole violent crime is lower in the UK compared to the US. Just look at the stats: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime

According to the figures per million people, you are 4 times more likely to be murdered in the US compared to the UK. I think we just have a different attitude to self defense and violent crime, I mean it's very unusual for our police officers to be armed and is actually pretty shocking to most of us when we do see armed officers.

As to that story about the pensioner.. I don't know the specifics but I would imagine there is more to the story than is in the news. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" to defend yourself so the arresting officers must believe he has gone beyond that.

LLLEARNER wrote:
It is interesting to note that London just passed New York's murder rate.

And that is amid the big push to "Save a Life, Turn in a Knife".

Not to scream "Fake News" but the BBC's Reality Check fact checker has some interesting statistics on this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43628494

Yes London had higher murder rates for February and March this year vs New York but actually not that much higher (e.g. 22 vs 21 in March). In January the figures were very much the opposite with the NYPD investigating 18 murders, compared to 8 in London. All in all New York is slightly worse taking into account the whole of 2018 so far.

Looking at the whole year, homicide rates for 2017 in London were significantly lower taking the full 12 months into account, you were 3x more likely to be murdered in New York in 2017. (1.2 per in 100 000 London and 3.4 in New York).


And I can accept that it is different cultures. But oddly enough, the parts of the US where you are most likely to get murdered, on average, are those with the strictest weapon control laws.
Like you said, different cultures. Where I live is MUCH safer than either London or New York. And some of the cities I travel to are safer still. But they are all places where people tend to be heavily armed. However, the caveat is that they are places where responsible ownership and use of arms is a cultural norm, and criminal behavior and known criminal subcultures are ostracized as a rule.
Make of that what you will.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Measurement of crime can also differ. If I remember right, a murder only counts as a murder upon adjudication, rather than in the US where it is based on the determination of the investigation.

There are also a couple of other ways to manipulate the stats depending on goals of the study.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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Steele52
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 10 Oct 2018
Posts: 7


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had the privilege of learning the martial art, Arnis. I have been taught how to use a wooden stick. I love how this seeming harmless weapon, combined with hand to hand combat can be used to launch a powerful attack and disarm enemies.
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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 144
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
I'm in agreement on firearms training, knives, and sticks being the most practical for modern people. That said, I think it's easy to overlook traditional weapons without realizing that the techniques used with them can be applied to other things. What functional difference is there between manipulating nunchaku and manipulating a belt or length of chain? What difference is there between the techniques of kama and striking and hooking with a hammer? What's the difference between blocking and striking with a sai and blocking and striking with a tire iron? Honestly, not much.


What Wastelander states is spot on. Additionally, weapons styles, practices, and kata help your empty hand techniques, so there is much more value to studying them than just the surface.

That being said, I carry knives (always 3) and a concealed firearm. This is all in compliance with the laws of my state (New York by the way...but not New York City...upstate, near Canada. Largest town in the area has 29,000 people). Sticks are great. I especially like the Chizikunbo. They can double as "acupressure devices," can be carried easily in your pocket, and are absolutely effective at close range.
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