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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necessity is the mother of all inventions.

As survival is a priority, then adaptions are important to bring about change for improvements.

As Samurai were reduced to civilians, with the Western influence of the modernization of Japan, understandably these Samurai looked for alternative methods of using their combat skills.

This would be the moment for the Samurai to update their combat methods to fit their circumstances to add something new.

As the Japanese usually looked to the Chinese for improvements now the government is looking to the West, understandably the Samurai would look to the East.

With some Samurai going underground as Ninjas and others openly starting to focus more on Jujitsu.

Understandably, dedicated as Samurai are, wanting to perfect their combat fighting skills, to draw from Chinese soldiers or doctors, would be great for them, as having the latest and greatest anything, is an advantage, no matter the century a person is living in.

Now with Chinese Chin Na, it isn't conducive to Western values, as it is very certainly far too aggressive in, urban combat situations.

Therefore to be used openly, it needs to look normal, but it is in fact attacking all or any vulnerable area of the body, such as nerves and grabbing skin, joints, muscles, tendons as in everything on the body is a target or used as a leverage, as set ups, to literally tear a person apart with bear hands, as would be expected from a wild animal perhaps.

This is why Chin Na isn't marketable to the general public, and is kept under military lock and key; as breaking a person's neck isn't going to look good for the local dojo.

To have Chin Na fights between people in an arena would be the same as a savage dog fight.

As we have seen in the movies with "Rocky" puching raw meat from a hook, with Chin Na, the practice is to tear off chucks of meat just with bear hands.

This is why today's Jujitsu is incomplete and hopefully it stays that way.
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Tempest
Green Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, so your theory seems to be that Chin Na is not marketable because it is "Too Deadly"? I really hope I am misunderstanding you, because that entire line of reason is so faulty and proven to be so to such an extent, that refuting it YET AGAIN would just be an exhausting waste of time.

So, assuming that is not what you are saying, I would ask what you mean by Jujitsu being incomplete? Just because I have the option to CHOOSE whether to kill or cripple someone, doesn't even so much as imply that doing so isn't an option. In fact, it is even more of an option because I have the choice and my opponent doesn't.
The reason Jujitsu is called the "gentle art" is because it is gentle compared to swords, spears, bows, and guns. If anyone really thinks it is all that gentle, when trained correctly, I invite them to show up and train for a bit. I assure you that will dispel any such notions.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swords, spears, bows and guns could seem gentle compared to other weapons, as everything is relative.

As Jujitsu could seem very aggressive compared to Aikido and Tai Chi.

As for the marketability of Chin Na, it is too dangerous for children to learn and practice as for seniors it's too hard on the body, that doesn't contain health benefits for them.

Of couse from the established grappling disciplines thinking that Chin Na is being "Too dangerous" is a joke, it is a matter of experience and choice to think if it is or not; in the wrong hands it could become an excuse for being cruel.

As for Jujitsu being gentle, I disagree on that aspect, as it looks abusive due to bouts being drawn out or prolonged instead of finishing quickly.

Also unnecessary, the added need for abusiveness attached to being in control when the fight is finished, as attempting to destroy the opponent's spirit, adding insult to injury by using unnecessary punches, slaps and or elbow strikes; this is just being spitefully cruel in nature.

My CI on Chinese martial arts, sone twenty years ago, was Dennis Rovere.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/158218/the-xingyi-quan-of-the-chinese-army-by-dennis-rovere/9781583942574
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Tempest
Green Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breaking an opponents spirit is far preferable to breaking their body.

If I can control someone in mount or back mount and slap them around and they can't escape, then it demonstrates effectively that I could kill or cripple them without much more effort, without the need to really do so.

It should be obvious to anyone caught in bottom mount, or back mount, without an intelligent solution to the position, that they have already lost, but some people are stubborn and need to be shown the error of their ways. So, a slap or an elbow or a GENTLY applied arm-lock or choke, is a good reminder that no amount of ferocity or "wanting to" or spirit or anything other than an intelligent, practiced, trained response, is going to get them out of their predicament.
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Breaking an opponents spirit is far preferable to breaking their body.

If I can control someone in mount or back mount and slap them around and they can't escape, then it demonstrates effectively that I could kill or cripple them without much more effort, without the need to really do so.

It should be obvious to anyone caught in bottom mount, or back mount, without an intelligent solution to the position, that they have already lost, but some people are stubborn and need to be shown the error of their ways. So, a slap or an elbow or a GENTLY applied arm-lock or choke, is a good reminder that no amount of ferocity or "wanting to" or spirit or anything other than an intelligent, practiced, trained response, is going to get them out of their predicament.


I totally agree with your statement. Any technique applied to someone that does not understand how to defend against it will be dominant.

I also agree that it is preferable to break an opponents will rather than inflict harm if at all possible.

Good solid points Tempest.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explain this one away please?

Jiu-jitsu Instructor Killed Trying To Disarm A Robber On A Bus

A news from odia Violence in Rio de Janeiro has claimed another victim on the 20th of June. The jiu-Jitsu instructor at the academy of Ipanema Fight, Bruno Inacio Nunes, aged 37, was recently killed in an attempted robbery that occurred on a bus. The powerful black belt tried to disarm the robber but was shot in the head and reported to be dead.

At the time, the bus was not very full of people, and when the single gunman came and started to take the belongings of his victims, Bruno thought that he would be able to disarm him and get away. He took his opportunity but was later shot in the head, right above his left eyebrow, killing him instantly.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/jiu-jitsu-instructor-killed-trying-to-disarm-a-robber-on-a-bus/
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
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Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Explain this one away please?

Jiu-jitsu Instructor Killed Trying To Disarm A Robber On A Bus

A news from odia Violence in Rio de Janeiro has claimed another victim on the 20th of June. The jiu-Jitsu instructor at the academy of Ipanema Fight, Bruno Inacio Nunes, aged 37, was recently killed in an attempted robbery that occurred on a bus. The powerful black belt tried to disarm the robber but was shot in the head and reported to be dead.

At the time, the bus was not very full of people, and when the single gunman came and started to take the belongings of his victims, Bruno thought that he would be able to disarm him and get away. He took his opportunity but was later shot in the head, right above his left eyebrow, killing him instantly.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/jiu-jitsu-instructor-killed-trying-to-disarm-a-robber-on-a-bus/


Hero complex. Looking for a chance to use the acquired skills and found a reason.

Not sure what the point is as no art trumps a loaded gun. Bullet wins every time.

You could just as easily replace Jujutsu with any art and have the same outcome. I'm not defending grappling arts. The only arts I can claim as grappling arts are Judo and Muto (Tegumi). I have never studied Jujutsu and don't have a dog in the fight.

Having said that, anyone in this situation could be killed trying to disarm a gun. If the gunman knows what they are doing you are at a serious disadvantage as an unarmed, albeit skilled, person. Again no art can stop a bullet. This only happens in the matrix.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2207


PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 Pillars of jiu-jitsu

Be prepared for any attack and get fit by learning to defend:
•Common strikes
•Grabs
•Headlocks
•Bear hugs
•Wall pins
•Gun, knife, and other weapon attacks

https://www.iqjiujitsu.com/#whoarewe
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2207


PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point being, the Jujitsu instructor dies because of trying to subdue a robber with a gun.

While this type of defence against weapons, is what he teaches others to do.

There obviously is a gap of knowledge, missing for this instructor, by doing nothing, it could have saved his life.

To do a technique for real isn't a perhaps I can or perhaps I can't sort of thing, because of practicing it in the dojo.

As disarming a person holding a gun is strictly for professionals as law enforcement or trained military personnel.

As I have been saying all along, jujitsu is incomplete; in other words, it is good for some things and not others.

If a law enforcement officer or military person was killed in this situation, then it would have happened in the line of duty.

Wheras this jujitsu instructor was shot dead for trying to do something about a gunman.

There is psychology needed in situations when people are armed, to de-escalate the situation if possible, something a jujitsu instructor perhaps isn't trained in handling, due to the limitations of training in dojo settings.

As those trained in Chin Na, are payed professionals, using the spectrum of grappling techniques, from restraining mental patients in hospitals, too restraining delinquent youths, too disarming and apprehending criminals.

These professionals are not in competition with their opponents, or trying to destroy someone's spirit by slapping them, as this isn't a professional mindset or the correct intent to have; even though it is acceptable in martial art grudge and challenge matches.
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? Ok, perhaps we are missing something here.
Where is the evidence that those trained in Chin Na are "paid professionals"? This is an extraordinary claim, and as such needs some evidence to back it.

On the other hand, we have this from my home town:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QdrgCjO5nI

Now, professionals in use of force train in all sorts of things, but that said, the purpose of unarmed combat skills of all sorts, with the police, is to enable the subduing of a subject without harm to themselves or the officer, or in extreme situations to allow the officer to fight to his tools. We issue police tools for a reason.

That said, there is no training that guy could have had that would have guaranteed success against a loaded gun in hand. There simply isn't. Judo/Jiu-jitsu gives you as good a chance as you are going to get, but really it isn't that good. The correct solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. The police would likely not have tried to disarm the suspect for exactly the reason demonstrated by that instructor. Most of them would have had far LESS of a chance of pulling it off, so they would have ordered the subject to lay down his weapon, and if he failed to comply and made any threatening move they would have shot him.
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darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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