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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Police and military around the world use grappling techniques, that use different names for the same thing or idea, that is to say, keeping the peace and protecting themselves.

The most special of all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Quhnm-Z8A


Last edited by Alan Armstrong on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are over 700 qinna traditional techniques found in all martial arts.

Qinna can generally be categorized (in Chinese) as:
1."Fen jin" or "zhua jin" (dividing the muscle/tendon, grabbing the muscle/tendon). Fen means "to divide", zhua is "to grab" and jin means "tendon, muscle, sinew". They refer to techniques which tear apart an opponent's muscles or tendons.
2."Cuo gu" (misplacing the bone). Cuo means "wrong, disorder" and gu means "bone". Cuo gu therefore refer to techniques which put bones in wrong positions and is usually applied specifically to joints.
3."Bi qi" (sealing the breath). Bi means "to close, seal or shut" and qi, or more specifically kong qi, meaning "air". "Bi qi" is the technique of preventing the opponent from inhaling. This differs from mere strangulation in that it may be applied not only to the windpipe directly but also to muscles surrounding the lungs, supposedly to shock the system into a contraction which impairs breathing.
4."Dian mai" or "dian xue" (sealing the vein/artery or acupressure cavity). Similar to the Cantonese dim mak, these are the technique of sealing or striking blood vessels and chi points.
5."Rou dao" or "rou shu dao" (soft techniques) which generally refers to the techniques deemed safe for sparring and/or training purposes.

Qin means to capture or lock, na means to grab or hold, and while those actions are very often executed in that order, the actions can be performed distinctly in training and self-defense: a trap isn't always followed by a lock or break, and a lock or break is not necessarily set up by a trap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Na
----------------------------------------------------
Another aspect of Chin Na, is pressure point strikes.

This is why understanding anatomy is important.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZzvbrAy0_k
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Tempest
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Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Rou dao" or "rou shu dao" (soft techniques) which generally refers to the techniques deemed safe for sparring and/or training purposes.

Also known as those techniques that we know actually work.

But, lets leave that aside for the moment.
1st: Unless you are fighting against small children, you are not going to be able to just grab and tear someone's major muscle groups. Just doesn't work. Try it against an actively resisting opponent some time and video it. I would love to see the results.

2nd: Joint locks. Those are a thing. We do them A LOT in Judo/Jiu-jitsu. In fact, we get good enough at them to do them from all sorts of positions, and to understand when you can and cannot apply them. I have seen Chinese Martial Arts coaches with students in MMA fights yell at their students to attempt to apply a submission from bottom mount that simply cannot work from that position.

3rd: This is air chokes and really tight pins. Have you ever been pinned under a REALLY good Kesa Gatame? It is uncomfortable to say the least. Once again though, it is about training methods, not techniques.

4a: There is no such thing as Chi
4b: Proper strangles are a thing. Surely you are not suggesting that Judo/Jiujitsu doesn't contain a full variety of these?

5: Once again, also known as the only techniques we know work.
I feel that this podcast has the correct way of it:
http://www.grapplearts.com/cults-comets-critical-thinking/
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I have to ask where do you find, except in modern times, disarming tactics for guns in Chin Na?

I admit that Muto (Tegumi) is based on old school Chin Na but I have also studied Chin Na and have never seen these tactics.

I believe based on my research that many of our applications come from the Chinese arts so I would love to say that everything springs from Quan Fa, Qin Na and Jiao Di (Li). But that's just not the case.

Having said that I have to ask, how is it that every professional in a field that requires restraining techniques uses Chin Na? There are many, many grappling and submission arts to choose from. How does anyone say that Chin Na is the art EVERYONE uses?

And again I don't care if your a super grandmaster of Chin Na when it comes to an attempt to disarm an gunman it's a last resort scenario. No amount of training in any art stops bullets. You would have to be close and hope they don't react and squeeze the trigger. Bottom line... If your name isn't superman or have full body armor your chances of success are slim at best.

No art trumps a gun especially when the holder of that gun knows what they are doing.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me jujitsu is a specialized segment of Chin Na.

A little elaboration, as anything practical, efficient that works in martial arts is Chin Na.

All martial art systems, styles and disciplines contain some amount of Chin Na.

Police and military cannot afford to train with flowery techniques that don't work.

All MA sports have a certain amount of Chin Na in them, as a punch from boxing, hitting to the jaw is hitting a nerve.

As a headlock in MMS is cutting off the air supply and stopping the flow of blood to the brain, is Chin Na.

Regarding Chi, it isn't anything mystical, it's just a way of understanding energies.

George Dilman is perpetuating Chi power, but he doesn't represent me and my views, as they are very different than his.

As the saying goes:

One rotten apple can ruin the whole barrel.

If George wants to show me some impressive use of Chi power then let him try some of this:

From "Vietnamese police"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XjjjAGClTwc
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Tempest
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Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwXlh1zugpA&t=17s

Much cooler demo IMO.

The issue is, though, what's better than EITHER of those demos is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvSgiMuK_3Q

Why?
Because it isn't rehearsed or cooperative and the participants are actively resisting the techniques being applied.
Training in a rehearsed demo only teaches you how to fight against a rehearsed opponent. It doesn't matter what techniques you have practiced if you can't deliver them when it's go time.
This tends to be what happens when most Chin Na or Kung-Fu guys fight against people with Judo/Jiujitsu training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_UOFL07I9w

Not because of techniques, but because of training methods. Again I refer back to this:
http://mattthornton.org/its-aliveness-still/
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darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
For me jujitsu is a specialized segment of Chin Na.

A little elaboration, as anything practical, efficient that works in martial arts is Chin Na.

All martial art systems, styles and disciplines contain some amount of Chin Na.

Police and military cannot afford to train with flowery techniques that don't work.

All MA sports have a certain amount of Chin Na in them, as a punch from boxing, hitting to the jaw is hitting a nerve.

As a headlock in MMS is cutting off the air supply and stopping the flow of blood to the brain, is Chin Na.

Regarding Chi, it isn't anything mystical, it's just a way of understanding energies.

George Dilman is perpetuating Chi power, but he doesn't represent me and my views, as they are very different than his.

As the saying goes:

One rotten apple can ruin the whole barrel.

If George wants to show me some impressive use of Chi power then let him try some of this:

From "Vietnamese police"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XjjjAGClTwc



I think I understand what you are saying even though it is coming off as everything sprang from Chin Na. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying that anything (any art) that resembles Chin Na you are referring to as Chin Na even though it is not the same art, correct?

You are compiling a lot of specifics and attributing them to Chin Na. I don't think I can agree with you on this. What George Dillman purports to teach "chi" is not Chin Na it's phony. As far as what we call Chibudi and what he calls Kyusho and what the Chinese call Dim Mak, this can be found in just about any Chinese martial art and IMHO is not locked in to Chin Na alone.

Also when I was learning Chin Na we did not practice throwing techniques or ground fighting as is predominant in Jujitsu. However this is predominate in Jiao Di, Jiao Li and Shuai Jiao. How are you making the total connection that Jujitsu is Chin Na?

Chin Na or what my Sifu called Qin Na is a grappling art utilizing submission and controlling applications with very few throw applications. Maybe we had different teachers and maybe there are several forms of Chin Na but I did not see the correlation between Chin Na and Judo/Jujitsu other than in these applications. We did no ground fighting whatsoever and as I said very few throws/takedowns.

When my Shinshii discusses the influences on Toudi (Karate) he differentiates Chibudi as Dim Mak, Tuite as Chin Na and Muto (Tegumi) as okinawan wrestling and Jiao Li. I know that Shuai Jiao and Kuai Jiao often go hand and hand with Chin Na and the two arts compliment each other but have never heard or read that these two arts are one and the same so I am having trouble making the stretch that Jujitsu is Chin Na.

Please elaborate.
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just re-read my post Alan and it seems like I am tearing your opinion apart.

I apologize for the way it reads but I assure you that I am genuinely interested in how you are making this connection. My background is predominately Okinawan arts with a sprinkle of Chinese and Japanese arts. So I do not purport to be an expert. Having said that I am interested in this because for years I have heard that our throws and submission/controlling applications resemble Jujitsu even though my Shinshii always told us that these came from Tegumi (Okinawan wrestling) and Chinese wrestling. I have spent a good 20 years researching these discrepancies and honestly have never heard of Chin Na encompassing all of the arts we consider separate or that Jujitsu is Chin Na.

If you can get past the way the post comes off I would appreciate the explanation and clarification. And again I mean no malice but claims are made constantly over the internet with nothing but opinion to back them up. Any proof would be appreciated as well.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some statements.

I practice Chinese martial arts but not kung fu.

I believe in aliveness over demonstrations.

I believe many traditional martial arts are not practical or ready for today's challenges.

I believe martial arts is constantly evolving and also regressing.

I believe in reality martial arts over virtual imitations.

I believe the individual martial artist is more important than the system or style.

I believe martial arts is a good way to develop oneself and to help others and to share this information to anyone that wants to do the same.
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Some statements.

I practice Chinese martial arts but not kung fu.

I believe in aliveness over demonstrations.

I believe many traditional martial arts are not practical or ready for today's challenges.

I believe martial arts is constantly evolving and also regressing.

I believe in reality martial arts over virtual imitations.

I believe the individual martial artist is more important than the system or style.

I believe martial arts is a good way to develop oneself and to help others and to share this information to anyone that wants to do the same.


I can't disagree with your statements as they are your beliefs and I respect that. However, with all due respect, I am not sure how this answers my questions or gives levity or clarity to your earlier statements.
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