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Prototype
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367


PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
I'm still confused. An intermediate level boxer is still not going to "floor" you.

..


Why not? It depends. How long has he trained. Is he talented? Which style of a boxer is he? Is his reach greater than mine?

If he is not particularly talented and has a reach disadvantage, I expect to steamroll him. He can pop me a few times but that will be all she wrote. He is sparring a red belt who prefers using hands. I don't mind not kicking.
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Prototype
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Joined: 15 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Ok. I have been kinda staying off of this one because I really wanted the people with more "official" boxing experience to chime in...

But, here I go anyway:
Look, there are several things that I can tell right away from someone's heavy bag technique that would ABSOLUTELY give me pause about sending them in with more advanced guys.

1. If your punches look sloppy on the bag, and the bag is not moving right, it means you lack the form and structure to generate enough power to stop a bigger, more advanced fighter. They may just walk through your punches and hit you till you fall down.

2. If the bag still moves, even with sloppy punches, it means you are making up for poor form with muscle. This means you will more likely injure yourself and others. If I am thinking about putting you in with one of my guys training for a fight, this is a no go.

3. If YOU aren't moving around the bag, then that means your footwork and distance management are not where they need to be yet.

Now, earlier on here I posted some tips on how to work the bag to fix a lot of these issues. I will see if I can link to it in a moment.

Additionally, the heavy bag SHOULD get some work during class, BUT it is also your primary solo drill tool. Spend at LEAST as much time on it as you do your shadow boxing.


My bag work is terrible mostly due to the fact that I am not used to the material. I have no problem at all popping guys with power shots in sparring. This notion that the bag resembles a human is false.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading your post a few times to make sure I understood your point in this I would say that your coach is not setting you up in the sense of getting your hurt and proving a point. It sounds like in your mind you are at a certain level and he doesn't feel that you are.

IMHO he is allowing you to find out where you are for yourself. Sometimes we see ourselves differently than those that instruct and teach. Your coach is watching all aspects of the fight game and he see's a chink in your armor.

If it were me I would step back and get the appropriate training and learn the lessons he is trying to teach before moving forward based on an assessment of beating your fellow beginners and shadow boxing.

It really comes down to this... shadow boxing is against air. It's easy to look good when there is no resistance. If the bag is giving you a hard time and wearing you out, just think what a heavy bag that hits back will do to you.

I see this a lot with students. They are naturally gifted at one aspect and want to jump ahead based on that alone. They may look better than a black belt when performing their Kata and automatically think they have an edge. That is until they step up and get knocked down. Striking in the air and looking good is different from stepping up to full contact. If you don't look good working the bag it means you are not as good as you feel and you need more work. This is not a bad thing. I think your coach is looking out for you in that he has identified a weakness and is concentrating on working with you to improve it.

If it were me I'd listen to my coach and take a step back and learn the proper way so that when you do step up to the next level you can perform at the level that your feel you are. Jump too fast in a contact sport and you will find out quick just where you belong.

There are levels to fighting. Speed and conditioning are good, couple it with stopping power and your then a force to be reckoned with. If you get in the ring with someone that has learned these lessons and you have not (meaning you only bring speed and conditioning), you will most definitely learn a new lesson.

Just my 2 cents.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27542
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with MatsuShinshii on this one. It sounds to me like you are trying to suggest to your coach/instructor where you should be training level-wise, and your instructor is telling you otherwise, but it sounds like you are not listening. So it sounds to me like he is going to give you what you want, whether you truly realize what it is you are getting. A more traditional-style instructor might view this as being somewhat disrespectful. That could be how this coach is viewing it. Just food for thought on your approach here.

I don't think the coach is setting you up for failure. I think he is putting you where you think you want to be. Either way, after all is said and done, you'll know the answer. Please keep us posted.
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Prototype
Green Belt
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Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367


PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I'm with MatsuShinshii on this one. It sounds to me like you are trying to suggest to your coach/instructor where you should be training level-wise, and your instructor is telling you otherwise, but it sounds like you are not listening. So it sounds to me like he is going to give you what you want, whether you truly realize what it is you are getting. A more traditional-style instructor might view this as being somewhat disrespectful. That could be how this coach is viewing it. Just food for thought on your approach here.

I don't think the coach is setting you up for failure. I think he is putting you where you think you want to be. Either way, after all is said and done, you'll know the answer. Please keep us posted.


Why am I moved down a level when I dominate secondary level guys who apparently block with their head and can't parry a jab?? Why aren't they moved down? Isn't it more important if you can actually fight? I have seen their bag work, and some of them where quite good and fluid. It didn't matter one bit once we sparred.
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MatsuShinshii
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I'm with MatsuShinshii on this one. It sounds to me like you are trying to suggest to your coach/instructor where you should be training level-wise, and your instructor is telling you otherwise, but it sounds like you are not listening. So it sounds to me like he is going to give you what you want, whether you truly realize what it is you are getting. A more traditional-style instructor might view this as being somewhat disrespectful. That could be how this coach is viewing it. Just food for thought on your approach here.

I don't think the coach is setting you up for failure. I think he is putting you where you think you want to be. Either way, after all is said and done, you'll know the answer. Please keep us posted.


Why am I moved down a level when I dominate secondary level guys who apparently block with their head and can't parry a jab?? Why aren't they moved down? Isn't it more important if you can actually fight? I have seen their bag work, and some of them where quite good and fluid. It didn't matter one bit once we sparred.


I hear your frustration.

I would just say this... an instructor/teacher/coach see's what we can not because we are too close to the issue and often times, human nature (ego), clouds our judgement.

I can not speak to your peer's abilities. However I can speak to what you wrote of your's. It seems to me that you are very proud of your skills in certain area's (which you should be) but are ignoring the area's where you are weak, even admittedly so in your post. Being proud of ourselves is something we earn after paying the price to be the best we can be. If you know you have a weakness and have done nothing to improve it then your pride is false. Sighting that you can beat this segment of your gym is nothing to be proud about if you have weakness that the rest of the gym can take advantage of.

If your coach is holding you back but not the others then there must be a good reason for this (think about this for a moment, you know what the reason is). Often times when something happens that we feel is unjust we catch a little attitude instead of either talking to those we trust with our training or just accepting their judgement.

It's obvious to me that your coach feels that you have missed an important aspect of training along the line and wants you to learn it. Maybe your skills in these other area's glossed over your weaknesses and it has just come to light or he is just noticing them for the first time. Either way most instructors have the students best interests at heart.

In this case, upon seeing a chink in your armor, he is taking you back to improve upon it.

You can look at this an opportunity to improve or as an insult. Either way you should never concern yourself with the progress or lack thereof of others. You should concern yourself with you and what your coach feels is best for you.

It's a personal journey not a competition. Often times students are so concerned with pecking order that they don't see those that were below their skills and abilities fly past them while they were looking at everyone else. This is because they concerned themselves with their training rather than wasting energy on what others are doing.

My point is, concern yourself with your training and stop worrying where everyone else is. Your coach has a reason for what he is doing. You can either listen to him and see this as an opportunity to improve or you can worry about what you feel is the level of others and learn nothing and stay where you are at.

Or you could quit.

I don't mean to be so matter of fact or give you the impression that I am coming down on you, but I have dealt with this same thing with students most of my life and I see the benefit and possible reasons why your coach is doing what he is doing.

If he is anything like me he probably doesn't concern himself with lengthy explanations of why because he has your best interests at heart and knows what is needed for you to improve. That and if he senses the attitude of "why me but not them, I'm so much better", he probably takes this as you questioning his abilities and his integrity.

The point is, so many are in a race these days and instead of concerning yourself with what they are doing right now and becoming proficient at it, they are always looking at the next level and wanting to be there. Yes skill and ability will get you up the ladder rungs but only so far before your weaknesses bring you back down. Skipping rungs or ignoring them will earn you a faster trip back to the ground. This seems like your situation. You picked up on many things and had natural ability or past training that helped you climb but you ignored your weakness and now your falling back. Comparing yourself to others does nothing but hold you back.

You've admitted that you are deficient in an area already so you know what the problem is and you should know that a coach with much more experience than you would also have identified this issue as well. So what's the problem? He doesn't have it out for you. You have already explained why he is doing what he is doing.

What if you were the sole student of this man? Would it still be a problem or would you look at it as another part of your training? Take the others out of the equation. You still have a weakness. So why are you so hesitant to do what your coach wants you to do to fix it. How do the others even come into play here? It's about you, not them. Believe me, when you get in the ring your opponent doesn't care that you dominate your peers. He'll try to knock your head off just the same. If you don't have the necessary tools to stop him he'll succeed. Your peers will will not make a difference at that moment. That man will give you no more respect than some thug on the streets. It doesn't matter that you can beat your peer's. At that moment all that you can rely on is you and your training.

If you get into the ring with these guys your coach warned you about, understand this if you get destroyed, they didn't beat you. You beat yourself because you saw the deficiency and decided to ignore it and your coaches advice.

We all need the tough coach/instructor to knock us down off of our self made perch sometimes to make us see us for who we really are. The tough thing is looking past our own egos and taking their advice.

I hope you do. I'd love to read that you are destroying all of the competition in a few years. I wish you the best and hope even though you probably think I'm a jerk that you understand that the advice comes from a good place.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27542
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I'm with MatsuShinshii on this one. It sounds to me like you are trying to suggest to your coach/instructor where you should be training level-wise, and your instructor is telling you otherwise, but it sounds like you are not listening. So it sounds to me like he is going to give you what you want, whether you truly realize what it is you are getting. A more traditional-style instructor might view this as being somewhat disrespectful. That could be how this coach is viewing it. Just food for thought on your approach here.

I don't think the coach is setting you up for failure. I think he is putting you where you think you want to be. Either way, after all is said and done, you'll know the answer. Please keep us posted.


Why am I moved down a level when I dominate secondary level guys who apparently block with their head and can't parry a jab?? Why aren't they moved down? Isn't it more important if you can actually fight? I have seen their bag work, and some of them where quite good and fluid. It didn't matter one bit once we sparred.


That would be a great question to ask your coach. It could be that the difference between the secondary level and the intermediate level is that much greater.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
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