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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting hit with a spear hand in the throat is going to hurt regardless of the level of training of the person throwing the technique. The technique itself isn't ineffective, the human throwing it might be. The issue is that there is a greater risk of injury than if you threw a punch at the same area, which would likely be just as effective if landed. The pay off is greater control of yourself, and a greater range of soft targets. It would be difficult to shove a fist into an eye, but a finger might do the trick if I was looking to temporary blind someone to escape.

As to the question on length, I think a few years is a good measure of mastery, but not so great if we're measuring proficiency. I think that it's fairly safe to say that a martial artist would be able to throw an effective spear hand or toe kick without injuring themselves within a few months of training.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a society where footwear is prevalent, I don't see how conditioning your toes for kicking is very relevant, other than being an anachronistic thing.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
In a society where footwear is prevalent, I don't see how conditioning your toes for kicking is very relevant, other than being an anachronistic thing.
I'll have you know that I insist that all street fights I'm in are barefoot. I stop the whole confrontation and have all participants take their shoes off.
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vergil96
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 02 Sep 2021
Posts: 17

Styles: Karate Shotokan, Judo

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Getting hit with a spear hand in the throat is going to hurt regardless of the level of training of the person throwing the technique. The technique itself isn't ineffective, the human throwing it might be. The issue is that there is a greater risk of injury than if you threw a punch at the same area, which would likely be just as effective if landed. The pay off is greater control of yourself, and a greater range of soft targets. It would be difficult to shove a fist into an eye, but a finger might do the trick if I was looking to temporary blind someone to escape.

As to the question on length, I think a few years is a good measure of mastery, but not so great if we're measuring proficiency. I think that it's fairly safe to say that a martial artist would be able to throw an effective spear hand or toe kick without injuring themselves within a few months of training.

Well then, agreed.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
In a society where footwear is prevalent, I don't see how conditioning your toes for kicking is very relevant, other than being an anachronistic thing.
I'll have you know that I insist that all street fights I'm in are barefoot. I stop the whole confrontation and have all participants take their shoes off.


You've fought some very understanding opponents.
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 31

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Nukite and Toe striking...small target striking! Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:

This brings me to the barehanded techniques of Karate, we have hiraken, ippon ken and of course the ultimate small target area...Nukite!


My only nitpick with you would be that "typically" the ultimate small target area would be ippon nukite or the single finger spear hand...also the katas Unsu and Gojushiho.

Also, if I may, nukite is often looked at only one way and it should not be. Folks forget the thumb in this strike. There are a variety of different ways you can use the thumb as the striking surface or weapon and NOT the extended fingers. Remember, the nukite hand formation in the older Okinawan arts was done differently than the Japanese do. It is less esthetically pleasing to look at. But, in my opinion, much more effective.
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 31

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought of something else...and it might be of interest to you (or someone)...

Have you read the Bubishi? In it, one of the things that are shown are the "6 ji hands". Look familiar at all?



Might be especially familiar for anyone that knows the Tensho kata.

These are, as the story goes, from Monk Fist Boxing or Luohanquan.
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aurik
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We also use the boshiken (thumb weapon). Think of a palm-heel strike with the thumb tucked tightly against the palm, and the thumb is the weapon. This strike is typically done against the neck, throat, or chin. Shinjo sensei demonstrates this at about 0:45 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlJh-7ZnXbE. I've managed to do this once, and it went right through, although my thumb was sore for a week or so afterwards (right at the joint).

I don't foresee ever breaking boards using a nukite or sokusen geri. However, I think I'm almost at a point where I can break the 2x2's over the thigh, abs, and forearms (also demonstrated in the video).
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