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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:06 pm    Post subject: Nukite and Toe striking...small target striking! Reply with quote

Alright, this thread is based on my username and its also based on classical karate and the principle is based on, wait for it, my signature!

So I make this thread because I have been practicing Taekwondo and the emphasis is on speed and NOT on power. This actually brings me to the recent UFC leg breaks from hard kicking. Now I have been working on snapping kicks quick with no power but using snaps, accuracy and stabbing with the toe. I noticed its way healthier for the body and I can hit and not hurt my legs because they are flexed and properly bent.

This brings me to the barehanded techniques of Karate, we have hiraken, ippon ken and of course the ultimate small target area...Nukite!

Tell me something, as karatekas, how many of you practice these moves? Do students object because of possible hand deforming or do you guys use medicine similar to iron palms or do you guys recommend any recovery tactics?
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2552
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't work them extensively, but I do incorporate them into my training to a degree, and I think it's important for my students to learn about small-surface strikes. They are really a long-term option, though, due to the strengthening and conditioning involved, so I don't really bother with it until brown belt. They can definitely be very effective, though--I know that the first time my Sensei kicked me with a toe-tip kick, I felt like I had been stabbed. My go-to is keikoken, personally. As for medicine, I have used Thai Plai based liniments, as well as Dit Da Jow, for bruising and such, but not specifically for toughening my hands, because I'm not looking for my hands to become calloused and gnarly. I normally just use a CBD-infused lotion on my hands.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We practiced finger strikes in theory, but never in sparring. Some of our kata (sesain, anansu, passai sho) had finger strikes so starting at 3rd kyu you were expected to do push ups using your fingers. We also his a makiwara board with our fingers but otherwise it never came up. When I left that school, I stopped the conditioning. I'm sure there are situations that I could use them in, but overall it would not be my default, nor do I want it to be.
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aurik
Orange Belt
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Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Uechi-Ryu, we use small-target striking extensively. The only two kicks "officially" in our style are the shomen (aka sokusen) geri and sokuto geri. At higher levels (dan and above), the shomen geri is expected to use the first three toes as the striking element.

Likewise, our kata include many small target strikes, including the nukite (both palm-down and palm-up), shoken (one-knuckle punch), hiraken (leopard-fist punch, which uses the second knuckle of all four fingers as a striking point), boshiken (the thumb is the weapon here), and koken (bend the hands at a 90-degree angle and strike with the four fingers).

In every class, we train in Sanchin, and we are expected to keep the forearms and hands tense throughout the entire kata. Our instructors will periodically check the strength of our nukite by pressing/striking his palms against our fingertips to ensure that our hands are sufficiently strong.

There are several ways of training for strength in your fingertips -- fingertip push-ups are one good way, another is using heavy clay jars to increase your grip strength/fingertip strength. Then there are also the jars filled with sand (later gravel) to strike your fingertips into.

Start slow and know your limits. If you injure yourself while conditioning, you'll set yourself back. The idea is you want to be able to know how much punishment you can take and still be able to heal before your next session. If you give yourself a bone bruise while conditioning, that will take weeks or months to heal.

I've seen my CI break 3 one-inch boards with a toe kick. Of course, he's been training and conditioning for 30+ years.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Training for "speed" and not "power" isn't really possible. Power is a product of speed. Being fast equals being powerful.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nukite has its effectiveness, however, that effectiveness wanes from practitioner to practitioner, as is with any technique. Various training tools help strengthening the various nukites. Unleashed, any nukite can cause some damage at the target.

Now, on the one toe kicks. I've trained with Uechi-Ryu Karateka's, and I must say this as honest as I can...OUCH!! Hate getting tagged with it, even in a casual moment...though my leg left me and told me..."I'm out of here; hit someone else!!", as I struggled to maintain some realistic composure so that I could continue. I've ton of respect for that technique, and my answer to it is to wear a knights armor suit; that might not be enough.

Personally, I've witnessed the training of the toes and I must say..."Thanks, but NO THANKS...now or never. My weak constitution will let others train their toes like a Uechi-Ryu Karateka, instead of me. My skin crawls whenever I think about using my toes in that manner.



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Last edited by sensei8 on Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Training for "speed" and not "power" isn't really possible. Power is a product of speed. Being fast equals being powerful.


Your not wrong, but let me offer a comparison. When I did Thai kickboxing, we were told to "hit as hard as you can" and now that I am training Taekwondo/Korean Karate, I am told by my instructor that I should "snap it real quick, dont worry about power"

My best way to compare is, power kick does more damage but has a longer reload time. Speed base kick is more rapid and has a less reload time if that makes sense.

Although one thing to mention is, lots of Korean martial artist tend to start with speed, proper mechanics, attention to detail and flexibility. Afterwards, they start adding more and more power to it. This is something I noticed from Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo.



sensei8 wrote:
Nukite has its effectiveness, however, that effectiveness wanes from practitioner to practitioner, as is with any technique. Various training tools help strengthening the various nukites. Unleashed, any nukite can cause some damage at the target.

Now, one the one toe kicks. I've trained with Uechi-Ryu Karateka's, and I must say this as honest as I can...OUCH!! Hate getting tagged with it, even in a casual moment...though my leg left me and told me..."I'm out of here; hit someone else!!", as I struggled to maintain some realistic composure so that I could continue. I've ton of respect for that technique, and my answer to it is to wear a knights armor suit; that might not be enough.

Personally, I've witnessed the training of the toes and I must say..."Thanks, but NO THANKS...now or never. My weak constitution will let others train their toes like a Uechi-Ryu Karateka, instead of me. My skin crawls whenever I think about using my toes in that manner.




Very interesting to see Uechi-Ryu being mentioned once again. The reason I find it extremely fascinating is, I have noticed that in the custom wikipidea Himokiri Karate that Himokiri Karate maybe a homage based on Uechi-ryu. Fun fact about Himokiri karate is, even in the fictional setting, they were characters in the show who referred to Himokiri karate as " a gimmicky style that dishonors tradition"

From what you are saying about Uechi-Ryu and comparing it to Himokiri, it sounds like both are extremely brutal styles of karate. One thing is, I noticed that finger and toe strengthening is also mentioned in the shaolin text as a method in which a body part can be turned in to a weapon. Of course Uechi-ryu is based on Pangai noon kung fu and so it makes sense that they relate to one another.
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Miick 11
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 58


PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WE do finger strikes against the more sensitive targets, so over the top finger conditioning is not required . With toe kicks , dont forget, in most circumstances 'out and about' many of us wear hard shoes , with a hard toe (one guy in our style I went out with one night had moccasins on , I commented on it not having seen them in years . He then revealed they had steel capped toes ... steel capped moccasins ??? )

The middle knuckle of the ring finger is often used , commonly to drive or 'whip' it into an attacking punch at wrist ( P7, LU 8, etc ). Students might get one or two hits there so they know what it is like (it can disable that whole arm ) but generally we slap or tap it, as continual striking there will cause permanent damage . Again, this technique does not require heavy conditioning of the knuckle .
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Training for "speed" and not "power" isn't really possible. Power is a product of speed. Being fast equals being powerful.


Your not wrong, but let me offer a comparison. When I did Thai kickboxing, we were told to "hit as hard as you can" and now that I am training Taekwondo/Korean Karate, I am told by my instructor that I should "snap it real quick, dont worry about power"

My best way to compare is, power kick does more damage but has a longer reload time. Speed base kick is more rapid and has a less reload time if that makes sense.

Although one thing to mention is, lots of Korean martial artist tend to start with speed, proper mechanics, attention to detail and flexibility. Afterwards, they start adding more and more power to it. This is something I noticed from Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo.[/quote]

You're talking about two different ways of kicking. "Snap" implies "pulling," to me anyways, so you aren't delivering it all into the target. When executing techniques, does someone try to be slow on purpose? Especially if the result sought out to do damage?

I guess we could take an example of watching guys kick in the UFC, or other MMA events. I don't think they are kicking slow, nor do I think they are "snapping" their kicks. Yet they are very fast. They want to follow through with their kicks...I guess this is what you mean by the "loading" time? Either way, the equation doesn't change, no matter how you are kicking: P=Fxd/t.
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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Quote:
Training for "speed" and not "power" isn't really possible. Power is a product of speed. Being fast equals being powerful.


Your not wrong, but let me offer a comparison. When I did Thai kickboxing, we were told to "hit as hard as you can" and now that I am training Taekwondo/Korean Karate, I am told by my instructor that I should "snap it real quick, dont worry about power"

My best way to compare is, power kick does more damage but has a longer reload time. Speed base kick is more rapid and has a less reload time if that makes sense.

Although one thing to mention is, lots of Korean martial artist tend to start with speed, proper mechanics, attention to detail and flexibility. Afterwards, they start adding more and more power to it. This is something I noticed from Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo.


You're talking about two different ways of kicking. "Snap" implies "pulling," to me anyways, so you aren't delivering it all into the target. When executing techniques, does someone try to be slow on purpose? Especially if the result sought out to do damage?

I guess we could take an example of watching guys kick in the UFC, or other MMA events. I don't think they are kicking slow, nor do I think they are "snapping" their kicks. Yet they are very fast. They want to follow through with their kicks...I guess this is what you mean by the "loading" time? Either way, the equation doesn't change, no matter how you are kicking: P=Fxd/t.[/quote]

I can agree with your explanation and it does make sense. The idea of a snap is not let it linger or go through but to hit and retract back while in Thai style, hit and go through with it. So both require speed/power which what you are saying is correct.

I guess snap is more in spirit of volume and quickness and Thai is about maximum exertion of strike. One commits fully past their target and other looks to hit and return to position. Both can be fast and powerful in their own way.
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