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RW
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Nukite Reply with quote

What do you think of nukite? I have more to say about this, I just want to hear your thoughts first and then I will elaborate...
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sensei8
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nukite is one of those tools that truly depend on so many situations and the like; effectiveness depends on the practitioner, of course.

Don't see it much, if at all, outside the dojo. Inside the dojo, well, it's trained on quite a lot for whatever the reason(s). After all, the Nukite is NOT only used as one might imagine as a spear strike, and only for that.



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wildbourgman
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Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ability to successfully use nukite is like anything else, you get what you put into it. To me its more of a high level technique because it takes accuracy, body (hand and finger) conditioning and knowledge of anatomy in order to properly deploy this as a weapon.

The science behind it is pretty simple and undeniable. If you focus a certain amount of force to a smaller cross sectional area as opposed to a larger one you get more pounds per square inch to the affected area. During my career I operated high pressure triplex pumps. If the operation called for more pressure to be applied I would use a smaller plunger (piston) while using the same exact horse power engine. That change in itself would deliver higher pressure using the same horsepower.

Now think about that example with the human body and think about aging martial arts masters. How do you keep or even increase power with the same or even decreasing horsepower as you age?

You gain skill and knowledge, you use science of body mechanics, the anatomy and general engineering.

PS, I didn't even mention that you also gain several inches of reach on your opponent instantly.
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RW
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies guys. I agree with both, and that adds to my point...

I am incredibly curious about nukite, from a historic perspective. How could it have been regarded as a viable technique, from a historic perspective?

1) Like wildbourgman, you have to put A LOT of time, effort and training into it just to make it a viable attack (let alone a particularly powerful one). I am sure several karate masters from the years of yore trained their fingers to the point where they could nukite through a watermelon... but wouldn't that time have been spent more wisely perfecting other punches, kicks, elbow techniques, etc?

2) How reasonable is it to expect the hands to actually condition enough to use it? Turns out that the fingers themselves don't have any muscle, they move because of the tendons (really, I was surprised, but it's true, I looked it up).

3) Even with a perfectly conditioned hand through years and years... isn't it a very high risk technique? If you miss a tsuki or uraken or testsui or the like, the downfall is you leave yourself open to attack. If you miss a nukite (including hitting the wrong target or getting it blocked) you will break your fingers!

4) This takes us to the point that sensei8 brought up: "nukite is NOT only used as one might imagine as a spear strike". For example, chances are nukite is meant to be a grab or a hold instead, like for example, this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tABd4kpUlqI ).

If that is the case, which it probably is, why do most schools out there just use it like a strike?

In all, I am very curious from a historic perspective, and I feel that maybe karate inherited nukite from kung fu back when it mixed with okinawa te (for example, look up kung fu's beginner kata wu bu quan, it clearly has nukite in there)... but maybe it was meant to represent a REAL spear in kung fu? Just a wild theory...
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wildbourgman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
4) This takes us to the point that sensei8 brought up: "nukite is NOT only used as one might imagine as a spear strike"



Well that's the beauty of using your fingers. You can even use your fingers as a striking nukite, then fail and use it as a grab. To me that makes it a little less high risk.

One thing I didn't bring up is the way that Uechi-Ryū works with open hands from the beginning as opposed to other styles that start utilizing that once a student becomes a higher rank. I don't totally agree with that stance, but if you look at professional sports you see where open hands from the beginning is very effective training. I do understand that nukite and open handed fighting is not exactly that same thing but I think its close enough for me to illustrate the effectiveness.

My example is look at MMA or boxing where these athletes are trained and conditions to the highest standards and an open hand eye poke shuts everything down. Wow, these top flight trained fighters are completely shut down by an eye poke. That sure makes Uechi Ryu's use of the opened hand look like the right way.
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aurik
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a Uechi stylist, we do train in nukite from our very first class. Sanchin is our fundamental kata, and we train it with the nukite strike. We are expected to maintain isometric tension in the hands during the kata, most especially at the kime segment of a strike. At higher kyu ranks, your instructor will apply pressure to your fingertips to ensure that your hands are sufficiently strong.

Almost every one of our kata includes nukite strikes, but they are selective in their targeting. In sanchin we target the shoulder joint, obliques, and clavicle. In kanshu, we target the oblique muscles, and in seichin/seisan we target the groin and throat with our nukite. These are not intended to be used in sparring situations or combat against a prepared attacker, but more in street self-defense.

By the time one of us gets to senior kyu ranks, we've trained the nukite sufficient that I'd be pretty confident that if I needed to use a nukite in a self-defense situation that I'd know where to hit someone to do far more damage to him than me. This also applies to several of our other weapons, such as the boshiken (think of a palm heel strike with the thumb tucked in, where the thumb is the striking point), and the shoken (one-knuckle punch).

I'm not quite there with the tsumasaki geri (toe kick) -- I need several more years of conditioning for that one.
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RW
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aurik wrote:
As a Uechi stylist, we do train in nukite from our very first class. Sanchin is our fundamental kata, and we train it with the nukite strike. We are expected to maintain isometric tension in the hands during the kata, most especially at the kime segment of a strike. At higher kyu ranks, your instructor will apply pressure to your fingertips to ensure that your hands are sufficiently strong.

Almost every one of our kata includes nukite strikes, but they are selective in their targeting. In sanchin we target the shoulder joint, obliques, and clavicle. In kanshu, we target the oblique muscles, and in seichin/seisan we target the groin and throat with our nukite. These are not intended to be used in sparring situations or combat against a prepared attacker, but more in street self-defense.

By the time one of us gets to senior kyu ranks, we've trained the nukite sufficient that I'd be pretty confident that if I needed to use a nukite in a self-defense situation that I'd know where to hit someone to do far more damage to him than me. This also applies to several of our other weapons, such as the boshiken (think of a palm heel strike with the thumb tucked in, where the thumb is the striking point), and the shoken (one-knuckle punch).

I'm not quite there with the tsumasaki geri (toe kick) -- I need several more years of conditioning for that one.


How's your nukite conditioning like?
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Wamp
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Styles: Ashihara Karate, Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP)

PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[What do you think of nukite? I have more to say about this, I just want to hear your thoughts first and then I will elaborate...]

Maybe it would be good for an eye gouge.[/quote]
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RW
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wamp wrote:
[What do you think of nukite? I have more to say about this, I just want to hear your thoughts first and then I will elaborate...]

Maybe it would be good for an eye gouge.
[/quote]

even then if you try an eye gouge and the other guy moves his head you'll break your fingers
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Wamp
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Touché RW
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