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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject: Olympic TKD from an ITF perspective |
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Sorry for the long post.
I was lucky enough to get tickets for the TKD at the Olympics this year. As I've also been to ITF World Championships thought you guys would be interested in how the two styles differed in their biggest competition. Was great seeing the differences in how they're run and what tactics the fighters employ and was great as an ITF person seeing TKD from a different perspective.
Some of the photos I took: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z0sk3yeq71zrr4u/U14xIcwERA
Some thoughts on things:
The ring
The size and use of the ring was very different. ITF rings are 9x9 m. WTF rings were 10x10 m for the Beijing games but are now 8x8 m. Now I'm not sure whether it was just because I was watching the heavier fighters and the more skilled fighters (as these were the medal fights) but the Olympic fighters rarely made it to the edge of the mat. ITF fighters tend to use the whole ring and inevitably end up going outside (thus getting penalised) but maybe once or twice the WTF fighters made it to the edge of the mat. WTF fighters tended to hold the centre of the ring well but there wasn't a whole lot of movement over the mat area. Movement was more circular. On the other hand, ITF fighters will go straight backwards or forwards as well as circular if it means getting into or out of range.
Contact levels
I'm not sure what to make of this. WTF/Olympic TKD is full contact and in fact the new electronic hogus will only register a point if it is delivered with sufficient force. ITF is billed as semi-contact. However, having watched both in person, I would actually say the contact at the top-level ITF fights is harder. I don't know whether the hogus are soaking up some of that force but in my experience the ITF-ers seemed to be hitting harder. TBH the only difference in rules seems to be that in the Olympics you can win by knocking out your opponent. ITF rules are worded so that if you intentionally cause a knockout, you will be disqualified but if its your opponent's fault for getting knocked out (say they walked into it) and they are unable to continue, you will win the bout.
Video replay
One thing I really did like about the Olympic rules was the instant video replay (IVR) system. The two opposing coaches were each given a card (not sure what they call it) which allows them to protest a decision. Coaches were mainly protesting whether head shots landed or missed (they couldn't protest body shots due to the PSS system) or in the case of the Gam. If they wanted to protest, they'd stop the bout, hand in their card and then the jury would go through the video footage from all angles to decide. If the complaint was upheld, they'd get their card back and the scores would be adjusted accordingly. If the jury decided they were wrong, the coach would lose the card. It seems like a great system as human error does happen and it gives the coaches a chance to overturn unfair decisions whilst also making sure they don't abuse the power.
ITF doesn't have video replays. You can put an appeal in after the match for a fee (which is returned if you are successful) however unless something was really wrong and you can prove it, you'll probably lose the appeal. Due to this, you won't get coaches contesting whether a kick scored or not (like in the Olympics) because you can't approve it. The jury won't accept a video you've filmed yourself because its not really fair if no-one videoed all of the other matches. I don't know why they don't have cameras for replays on every match but I suspect its to do with not being able to afford it.
I'll post more later if people are interested but watching the Closing Ceremony now 
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Matches I saw:
+65kg women
- Repechage 1: In Jong Lee (Korea)* vs Natalya Mamatova (Uzbekistan)
*winner with a score 8-1
- Repechage 2: Talitiga Crawley (Samoa) vs Mario del Rosario Espinoza (Mexico)*
*winner, score 0-13
- Bronze medal A: Anastasia Barry Shnikova (Russia)* vs In Jong Lee (Korea)
*winner, score 7-6
- Bronze medal B: Mario del Rosario Espinoza (Mexico)* vs Glenhis Hernandez (Cuba)
*winner, score 4-2
Final: Anne-Caroline Graffe (France) vs Milica Mandic (Serbia)*
winner, score 7-9
+80kg men
- Repechage 1: Robelis Despaigne (Cuba)* vs Kaino Tomsen-Fuataga (Samoa)
*winner with a score of 14-2
- Repechage 2: Alisher Gulov (Tajikistan) vs Xiaobo Liu (China)*
*winner, score 1-6
- Bronze medal A: Daba Modibo Keita (Mali) vs Robelis Despaigne (Cuba)*
winner as opponent unable to compete due to injury
- Bronze medal B: Xiaobo Liu (China)* vs Bahri Tankrikulu (Turkey)
bronze medallist, score 3-2
- Final: Antony Obame (Gabon) vs Carlo Molfetta (Italy)*
*gold medallist, score was tied at 9-9 at the end of the 3rd round so went to judges decision
Score breakdown: http://www.london2012.com/taekwondo/schedule-and-results/day=11-august/all-day.html
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Danielle,
EXCELLENT photos...I love them!! And yes, please post more...please. Post anything else you have from the Olympics.
I loved your info across the board...thank you so very much. I got more from you than I did from USA TV and/or newspapers...THANKS!!
I've seen and used the Axe Kick myself, and the way the Axe Kick was being used by one Olympiad...I sure did not like it's delivering substance at all. Pick up kicking foot real high...hold it up...skip forward to close distance...keep the kick up in the air longer...now...drop kick anywhere on the headgear...point! Again, if that's the "new" Axe Kick...please keep it...I don't want it.
I did see one FANTASTIC jump spinning back kick...that didn't score due to a clash between both Olympiads.
What was the best/worse match you saw?
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Great Bob, glad you liked them
I will post more thoughts, but first of all:
| sensei8 wrote: |
What was the best/worse match you saw?
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Best was definitely the men's final between Obame (Gabon) and Molfetta (Italy). Molfetta was the favourite and Obame was the underdog. Obame had never been to a major tournament before so was pretty much unknown and his country Gabon had never won an Olympic medal. The crowd were just going insane for the fight and since us Brits love an underdog everyone was shouting Obame's name. I had to rewatch it it was that good!
Obame was taller and was dominating the first round by just clean good fighting. Molfetta scored first by roundhouse (1 point) but Obame's coach put in a video appeal because he thought Obame had scored via an axe kick. Could clearly see it on the video so Obame got 4 points and Molfetta lost a point (not sure why) so was then leading the match 4-0. Molfetta then cornered Obame and was throwing all sorts of spinning kicks but at the end of the 1st round it was 6-1 to Obame.
Not much happened in the 2nd round but Molfetta did pull the score up to 6-3.
3rd round was amazing. Early punch by Molfetta put the score to 6-4 But then an absolutely beautiful right leg round house from Obame round Molfetta's head got him 3 points. Molfetta went down like a sack of potatoes! (Photo of it here) But to add to the drama, Molfetta's coach put in a protest to say that the kick was delivered after the referee told them to separate! So the jury deliberate for ages while we get to watch the replay over and over again from all angles  Jury decides that the kick was ok so Molfetta's coach loses the right to protest again and the score goes 9-4. Molfetta then really goes for it trying to get points back and gets the score to 9-6. Looked like Obame was going to get Gabon their first Olympic medal and make it a gold but in the last 20 seconds, Molfetta scored a wicked axe kick to bring the score level to 9 a-piece. Obame tried to then get some points back and just missed with another very good roundhouse to the head but they ended the 3rd round 9-9. Picture I took of the score board:
https://dl.dropbox.com/sh/z0sk3yeq71zrr4u/9m5XIvMeSO/DSCF0672.JPG
So then they went to a sudden death round but neither guys managed to get a point. Even though they were both really going for it. Obame trying to use his reach and Molfetta pulling 360 roundhouses and jump kicks and everything out of the bag. Molfetta nearly got a reverse hook kick in but just missed. Obame just threw the simpler roundhouses and side kicks hoping to get the point due to speed.
Unfortunately neither scored so then it went to judges decision and based on aggression and technique the judges awarded the fight to Molfetta  I didn't agree with that as although Molfetta was throwing more techniques and was more aggressive, Obame was picking him off and was leading the entire match and the majority of Molfetta's kicks were missing. Obame didn't need to be on the attack as he waited for the Italian to come to him and then countered to get his point. Molfetta was throwing the more complex kicks but they weren't the most effective kicks. From the noise, the crowd agreed with me.
How they behaved afterwards was very telling though. Whilst the judges were making their decision, Obame went up to Molfetta to congratulate him and hugged him and then when Molfetta was declared the winner, Obame put Molfetta's hand in the air and helped him out of his hogu. Molfetta starts doing his lap of honour and Obame is picking up all the hogus and headguards off the mats and giving them to one of the volunteers! It just seemed like the guy was just so happy to be there and it didn't matter whether or not he won. He hadn't even brought a flag into the arena with him so one of the volunteers went and got him one.
When they got the medals, Obame definitely got the bigger cheer and even on the podium he was bowing to the crowd and saying thank-you.
If you were going to watch only one match from the whole tournament, watch this one! Out of all the matches I've seen, ITF and WTF, this one was one of the best.
Score breakdown here: http://london2012.bbc.co.uk/taekwondo/event/men-more-than-80kg/match=tkm180101/index.html
UK guys can watch it here (highly recommended even if you don't normally enjoy TKD), part 11 on this video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/2012/live-video/p00w336x
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius
Last edited by DWx on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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So some more comparisons between ITF and WTF:
Format, scoring and the judges:
ITF bouts are 2 rounds of 2 minutes with a 1 minute break. If the score is tied after the 2nd round, the fighters have another round of 1 minutes to try to win. If after that minute they are still tied, the fight goes to golden point (sudden death) and keeps going until someone scores.
In comparison, the Olympic fights were 3 rounds of 2 minutes with 1 minute breaks. When the score is tied after the 1st round, a 2 minute sudden death round occurs. If the score is still tied at the end of that, the 3 corner umpires and the centre referee decide a winner based on aggression and technique. In the event that the decision is split, the centre referees vote is the deciding one.
I think I prefer the ITF method overall. The 3 rounds used in the Olympics is better as it gives fighters more time to work out and deliver their strategy but the deciding factor for me is what they do in the event of a draw. It seems that the Olympic match very much favours the more aggressive and forward attacking sparrer and the one who tries to pull off the technical (read that as "flashy") moves even if actually, these didn't help them to score more points and were a wasted effort. (See my above post about the Obame vs Molfetta fight). At least in the ITF fight, the counter sparrer or defensive sparrer is on more of an equal footing.
There is a difference between the two styles in the number of judges. This doesn't really impact on the fights much but I'm mentioning it in case you're interested.
In ITF there are 4 corner judges and 1 centre referee. The 4 corner referees score the points on an electronic pad and the centre ref is there to give out warnings and ensure the fighters abide by the rules. Also present is a jury president who can stop a bout at any time or give instructions to the centre ref.
In Olympic fights, there are only 3 corner refs who are there to score the head kicks and to mark when a kick is delivered with a rotation (more on that in a minute). A lot of the scoring for London 2012 was down to the Protector and Scoring System (PSS): the electronic hogus. Contact between the fighters gloves or foot protectors and the opponents hogu will register a point if the technique was delivered with sufficient force. (I'm unsure though whether the corner refs also had to count the technique).
In each, points are awarded for:
ITF:
1 point: hand to the body, hand to the face, kick to the body or a perfect defense (block which knocks the opponent off-balance)
2 point: kick to the head
+1 point for being in the air
+1 point for every 180 rotation in the air
so a 360 roundhouse to the head can net you 5 points (2 for a head kick, +1 for being in the air and +2 for the 360 rotation)
permitted scoring area is anywhere above the belt except the arms, back of the body and back of the head.
WTF:
1 point for a hand or foot attack to the trunk
2 points for a roundhouse to the trunk
3 points for a kick to the head
4 points for a roundhouse kick to the head
permitted scoring area is the coloured area on the hogu (a standard size based on the competitor's weight category) and the whole head, including the back of the head.
From that, WTF clearly favours the roundhouse as it score more than other kicks. This would probably explain why in the matches I saw that the fighters did very few side kicks or hooking kicks and spent the entire time roundhousing. Unlike ITF they also don't award points for added complexity (being airborne or added rotations) so perhaps that's why I only saw 1 or 2 competitors attempting the 360 roundhouse. Probably the only time that the more complex kicks are an advantage in the Olympics is a situation like the men's final when it goes to judge's decision as technique-wise the one who did the spins was better. Recently ITF also introduced a rule whereby you had to do at least one kick with a rotation in it per round or you would be deducted 2 points for that round. For the record, I think that sucks. As a competitor (and fighting in the heavyweight category) its not great having to force yourself to pull it off especially if you're not very good at it. However I guess of the two styles you could say that ITF style is more interesting to watch because the fighters are performing these acrobatic kicks.
Punches to the face are also not permitted in WTF and since at close quarters the legs often obscure any punch to the body (if it can deliver sufficient force) it meant a vastly different sparring style to ITF-ers. The Olympic fighters were more inclined to keep moving forward towards each other and either end in a clinch (whereby the referee would separate them) or they would actually push each other or use their arms to hold the opponent away so they could get the distance for the kick. Also meant they didn't have to protect their face at that range. Compare this to ITF where the fighters can punch to face and the ITF-ers are a lot more concerned about not getting too close to one another due to the risk of getting hit.
Also with the defense, ITF-ers prefer a tighter guard and they will try to block everything just in case they get that point for a "perfect defense". WTF on the other are more concerned with stopping attacks to the hogu. Since these are mainly going to be roundhouses and the don't have to worry too much about full face shots (hand or foot), the arms will remain down at the sides.
BTW, you can get the press pack and draws and everything for the Olympics from the WTF website. This is where I got all the WTF rules from so if any are wrong, blame the press pack : http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/olymic_games/00_Olympic_main.html
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Danielle,
I did watch the match between Obame (Gabon) and Molfetta (Italy), at least NBC got that one right. It was a great fight.
Your last two posts were SOLID, and I mean S-O-L-I-D!! Thanks for all of the info and for taking the time to post them.
I was expecting more continuous fighting but I wasn't expecting the Karate-tournament-like. Did the Olympics change the fighting format??
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Danielle,
I did watch the match between Obame (Gabon) and Molfetta (Italy), at least NBC got that one right. It was a great fight.
Your last two posts were SOLID, and I mean S-O-L-I-D!! Thanks for all of the info and for taking the time to post them.
I was expecting more continuous fighting but I wasn't expecting the Karate-tournament-like. Did the Olympics change the fighting format??
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No as far as I'm aware, that's the way they've always done it. Compare it to the 1988 Seoul Olympics (where TKD was first seen): http://youtu.be/dWbLtNwRrn0 and it looks largely the same.
It is technically a continuous fighting style and perhaps at lower levels it does seem more continuous. But if its the same as ITF, at the top level fights not much happens and there is a lot of standing still. The fighters are so on edge and waiting for a tiny movement from their opponent that it ends in stalemate.
There's also the factor of tactics to get the centre referee to help you out. In ITF fights, often if you're in punching range but it's getting uncomfortable, you're losing too many points and can't increase the distance, a tactic is to just grab your opponent and force them to clinch. After a few seconds, the referee will break you up and reset you to a point where you are a stance away from each other which is now kicking range. You've stopped your opponent from scoring the punches and now you're in a position to again work angles and try out some other tactics.
I can't say for sure as I'm neither a WTF player nor a WTF coach but maybe they have a similar tactic going on. As I alluded to in an earlier post, once you get past the point of being able to score with the legs, you're probably better off just cutting your loses and forcing the clinch leading to the match stopping all the time.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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on the post.
