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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2374


PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Palm up Thumb up Palm down Thumb down Reply with quote

Knowing these four hand positions is essential to ensure that your striking and deflecting/ blocking techniques are correct for optimal performance (the two other positions are hyper extensions something to use against your opponent and to avoid being in for oneself)

As for instance a palm up is an uppercut, thumb up is a hook, a palm down is a jab and an over hand left or right is a thumb down.

As a horizontally thrown back fist is a thumb up, while a vertical backfist from high to low is a palm up version.

Once the four versions are absolutely clear in one's mind, then practicing (punching) from many angles opens up an infinite amount of possibilities.

Adding the loose and fast punching skills from using the scapula, to the heavy hitting locked shoulder, twisting the whole body behind the punches.

Knowing the Pu Tu PD Td Concept also works well for practing self defence moves and grabs also palm strikes, chops and spear hand techniques.

Hope that high-lighting an awareness of these four hand positions is helpful?
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Wayofaswede
Orange Belt
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Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 146
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shukokai Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido (Aikikai), Judo, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes indeed, it makes the intended position of a hand much clearer. I will try to keep these four "basic positions" in mind when doing techniques/katas.

This concept should also simplify memorization of new patterns and should result in more confident applications. Thank you.
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The path so far: 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 4 kyu Karate (Shukokai Shito-ryu), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2374


PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wayofaswede.

Of course a jab or a spear hand Etc, could be used in all four positions, including the increments there of.

As knife hand strikes/chops are not all horizontal or vertical, just as important are the diagonals, descending and rising.

Makes understanding easier for instance when explaining the thumb up Wing Chun punch or the bear fisted palm up jab.

Also the starting off with a palm up punch (corkscrewed) could become a palm down one, as in a karate reverse punch, noting starting hand positions with different types of strikes on impact.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2374


PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When using a pulley and weights machine in order to strengthen my punching capabilities, the four versions is very effective towards exercising all of them confidently, just by twisting the wrist.

In knowing that I am giving all of my punching muscles a full workout, while simultaneously using the other hand practicing covering techniques; which really does translate well when sparring with an opponent.

As being completely conscious of the four positions, automatically the body will adjust towards maximising the positioning, to deliver the most effective way to deliver the power of the punch to the target, in the most efficient way possible.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2374


PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Came across this video about the "Thumb up left hook" worth a look at.
https://youtu.be/0qsP8YMaDQo

As there are other videos out there that are missing the point by using a "Palm down hook" saying that it is stronger and less chance of injury to the wrist; for me personally this is just plain and simple awkward.

Watching a trainer and boxer doing palm down hooks, leaves a nice Opening for the ribs to be struck, with that elbow raised higher than necessary.

Body mechanics dictates what is right or wrong for each individual as style and technique are not set in stone; this is something to keep in mind; as there are those that prefer something in between thumb up and palm down.

My preferred way is tilting the upper body that produces the palms up or thumb down, also horizontal pivoting for torque and power.

Where actually shots fired have more to do with how I'm leaning and pivoting combined with knees and feet.

Throwing punches/limbs, can gets very tiring, quickly for the arms without using any body hip rotation and legs.

Throwing combination punches from multiple directions needs addressing the issue of thumb and palm placement; as this is another beauty in utilising correct wrist rotation and positions.

What I see is that there is a confusion, when mixing an over hand with a hook, two different types of punches that can seem similar one as a thumb up and the other as a palm down and thumb down.

The palm down hook is a specially cultivated hook punch, intended to get right around a guard hand and strike.

Then to pull down on that guard hand, after the strike, to make an opening for another strike with the other hand.

Therfore a palm down hook, is a wide hook to strike behind the guard hand, with the intent to continue on to hook the guard hand to make an opening for another strike with the other hand or for MMA purposes towards making a Grappling manouevre.

Whereas a thumb up hook's intent is to knock the opponent out, primarily for stand alone boxing purposes.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2374


PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This concept of palm and thumb placement is far from easy to appreciate the benefits of practicing in writing.

However..

As a front hand palm open facing down accompanying a rear palm up fist is ready for, grabbing with the front hand and striking with the rear hand or perhaps a deflecting front hand slap and punch.

Or consider the reverse method of a front hand thumb up fist with a rear thumb up open palm, Indicating a jabbing front hand with a thrusting rear hand awaiting to thrust forward or for parrying away head shots.

Point being, all systems of martial arts give away intent with hand positions, be it Tai Chi with both palms open facing down, while Muay thai thumbs pointing up facing and mirroring each other; yet the bare knuckle fighter has palms up in to fists with the thumbs pointing outward.

The palm and thumb positions with fists open or closed are quick indicators of intentions and possibilities of the opponents weapons.

With practice using both hands clenched then with both open, then one hand open and the other closed.

Interchangeable with lead open front hand to clenched rear hand, then changing the order, is great for coordinating movements as perhaps one hand grabs while the other strikes.

Becoming very aware and practicing when hands are better to be open and or closed for techniques makes for what is called "leaking hands" that adapt to leak in to the opponent's defence.

With three options of each hand to be

Assisting
Neutral
Active

Independent of the other hand but being utilised to help each other.

Assisting could be used for holding, pinning, pushing, down the opponent.

Neutral could be used for deflecting and defending, also a backup to change in to Assisting or be Active in striking.

Active is striking or Inflicting damage on the opponent.

This concept of hands trickles over to other combat possibilities, such as when...

a person or opponent is crouching down, leaning forward, with both hands open, then expect to be taken down to the ground...

Palms open and facing down is okay against kicks but not appropriate against a boxer with clenched fists.

Hope you can see the point of all this...

As this is the Paper Rock Scissors game of martial arts.
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