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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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 Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: Passai Nidan |
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In my style of tang soo do, we have a form called bassai. It's pretty much what in shotokan is called passai shodan.
I have Funakoshi's book. It lists all the kata he included when he formalised the art of karate. Passai shodan is listed in there.
But there's no passai nidan in the book. And in tang soo do, passai shodan is just called bassai.
Shodan, if my Japanese terminology is any good, means 'first skill'. So where's the second one? Is there no such kata as passai nidan? Was there ever? Other forms that only come in one part don't have a number on them. So why does passai have shodan if there was never a second part? |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| There’s Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho in Shotokan. Perhaps look into those instead of Passai Nidan? |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| There’s Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho in Shotokan. Perhaps look into those instead of Passai Nidan? |
Cool. Thanks.
How come it's bassai dai?
It's years since I trained in a karate that admitted to being Japanese. My current style is (claims to be) Korean so my Japanese terminology is weak. Is 'dai' simply another way of saying 'second'? In Korean there are at least 2 different sets of the same numbers. Or is 'dai' something else entirely? |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| There’s Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho in Shotokan. Perhaps look into those instead of Passai Nidan? |
Cool. Thanks.
How come it's bassai dai?
It's years since I trained in a karate that admitted to being Japanese. My current style is (claims to be) Korean so my Japanese terminology is weak. Is 'dai' simply another way of saying 'second'? In Korean there are at least 2 different sets of the same numbers. Or is 'dai' something else entirely? |
No. Dai means greater. Sho means lesser.
Bassai is the Japanese pronunciation. Passai is the Okinawan pronunciation. Pasai or Baoshi is the Chinese pronunciation.
Passai Dai or just Passai was passed down from Matsumura Sokon. Passai Sho was invented by Itosu. He labelled the first Dai and his Sho.
Having said this there are many variations of the Kata. If your verion comes from Funakoshi it can either be from Shuri-te (Suidi) [Matsumura] lineage or Tomari-te (Tumaidi) [Oyadomari] lineage.
Hope that helps.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| There’s Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho in Shotokan. Perhaps look into those instead of Passai Nidan? |
Cool. Thanks.
How come it's bassai dai?
It's years since I trained in a karate that admitted to being Japanese. My current style is (claims to be) Korean so my Japanese terminology is weak. Is 'dai' simply another way of saying 'second'? In Korean there are at least 2 different sets of the same numbers. Or is 'dai' something else entirely? |
No. Dai means greater. Sho means lesser.
Bassai is the Japanese pronunciation. Passai is the Okinawan pronunciation. Pasai or Baoshi is the Chinese pronunciation.
Passai Dai or just Passai was passed down from Matsumura Sokon. Passai Sho was invented by Itosu. He labelled the first Dai and his Sho.
Having said this there are many variations of the Kata. If your verion comes from Funakoshi it can either be from Shuri-te (Suidi) [Matsumura] lineage or Tomari-te (Tumaidi) [Oyadomari] lineage.
Hope that helps. |
Yes, thanks, this is awesome info. I am very interested in the history and origins of the arts we study. Trouble is there's so much politics around it all, and so much misinformation, exaggeration, and outright lies in the mainstream 'record' it's hard to figure out what's true. What you've said not only fits the more credible aspects of the record, but also builds on it to give me pointers for further research. That's greatly appreciated. Many thanks. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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As MatsuShinshii said, the Dai and Sho suffices mean greater and lesser, or large and small. Kanku/Kusanku follows this as well in some systems - Kanku Dai and Kanku Sho. It’s basically another way of numbering them, so to speak.
As to the history of Passai/Bassai, I’ll defer to MatsuShinshii. |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Passai Nidan |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
In my style of tang soo do, we have a form called bassai. It's pretty much what in shotokan is called passai shodan.
I have Funakoshi's book. It lists all the kata he included when he formalised the art of karate. Passai shodan is listed in there.
But there's no passai nidan in the book. And in tang soo do, passai shodan is just called bassai.
Shodan, if my Japanese terminology is any good, means 'first skill'. So where's the second one? Is there no such kata as passai nidan? Was there ever? Other forms that only come in one part don't have a number on them. So why does passai have shodan if there was never a second part? |
here is a good article on Passai kata and it is great that you look into the origin of the forms you practice in TKD/TSD.
https://www.ikigaiway.com/2014/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/ |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Passai Nidan |
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| P.A.L wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
In my style of tang soo do, we have a form called bassai. It's pretty much what in shotokan is called passai shodan.
I have Funakoshi's book. It lists all the kata he included when he formalised the art of karate. Passai shodan is listed in there.
But there's no passai nidan in the book. And in tang soo do, passai shodan is just called bassai.
Shodan, if my Japanese terminology is any good, means 'first skill'. So where's the second one? Is there no such kata as passai nidan? Was there ever? Other forms that only come in one part don't have a number on them. So why does passai have shodan if there was never a second part? |
here is a good article on Passai kata and it is great that you look into the origin of the forms you practice in TKD/TSD.
https://www.ikigaiway.com/2014/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/ |
That's an excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I've read it and watched the clips, and will undoubtedly go through it a few more times because there's a lot to take in.
Two things really stood out for me. Firstly, that the form has evolved substantially in recent decades, from being more of a soft/internal almost tai chi like form, to a much harder and more aggressive style. If my observation is correct, then I'm inclined to lean towards the view held by some historians that out of all the possible translations of the name, the most widely accepted is possibly not the original intention.
The second thing that really jumped out at me was the shotokan bassai dai. It was clearly a natural evolution of earlier versions, and was undoubtedly the closest to what I practice as simply bassai. In fact it was almost identical. Close enough in fact that I'd bet if someone on my club were to perform the shotokan version of bassai dai in a grading instead of doing our version, if they did it well, I reckon they'd still get full marks in that section of the test. Feedback afterwards would possibly be along the lines of showing chambers more and being a bit more direct in some of the moves.
Bassai sho also stood out for me but for different reasons. I saw in that a kind of amalgam of key elements from the pyung ahn/pinnan/heian set as well as bassai dai. Almost like bassai sho is a kind of abridged version of all the forms typically taught to pre dan grade (kyu / geup ) students. We don't have bassai sho at ours, but as it looks like a mix of other bits we do have, I might learnt it for my own interests to see if it sheds more light on the other forms I have so far. |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:26 am Post subject: |
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That's an excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I've read it and watched the clips, and will undoubtedly go through it a few more times because there's a lot to take in.
Two things really stood out for me. Firstly, that the form has evolved substantially in recent decades, from being more of a soft/internal almost tai chi like form, to a much harder and more aggressive style. If my observation is correct, then I'm inclined to lean towards the view held by some historians that out of all the possible translations of the name, the most widely accepted is possibly not the original intention.
The second thing that really jumped out at me was the shotokan bassai dai. It was clearly a natural evolution of earlier versions, and was undoubtedly the closest to what I practice as simply bassai. In fact it was almost identical. Close enough in fact that I'd bet if someone on my club were to perform the shotokan version of bassai dai in a grading instead of doing our version, if they did it well, I reckon they'd still get full marks in that section of the test. Feedback afterwards would possibly be along the lines of showing chambers more and being a bit more direct in some of the moves.
Bassai sho also stood out for me but for different reasons. I saw in that a kind of amalgam of key elements from the pyung ahn/pinnan/heian set as well as bassai dai. Almost like bassai sho is a kind of abridged version of all the forms typically taught to pre dan grade (kyu / geup ) students. We don't have bassai sho at ours, but as it looks like a mix of other bits we do have, I might learnt it for my own interests to see if it sheds more light on the other forms I have so far. |
I understand that you may be more comfortable with Shotokan katas and longer stances but if you wanna add another Passai to your arsenal , I would recommend a tomari Passai from Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. it is a real deal .
this kata is well documented.
Watch this video and the two guests from Okinawa. @ 1:46 watch Ikihara doing the tomari Passai, these people are amazing in hitting with their body not just punch and kicks. a more formal version is the one Rika Osami of Shito-ryu does.
Shorin-Ryu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fuzw-oy78
Shito-Ryu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ws9Q7bbZzs |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Passai Nidan |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| P.A.L wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
In my style of tang soo do, we have a form called bassai. It's pretty much what in shotokan is called passai shodan.
I have Funakoshi's book. It lists all the kata he included when he formalised the art of karate. Passai shodan is listed in there.
But there's no passai nidan in the book. And in tang soo do, passai shodan is just called bassai.
Shodan, if my Japanese terminology is any good, means 'first skill'. So where's the second one? Is there no such kata as passai nidan? Was there ever? Other forms that only come in one part don't have a number on them. So why does passai have shodan if there was never a second part? |
here is a good article on Passai kata and it is great that you look into the origin of the forms you practice in TKD/TSD.
https://www.ikigaiway.com/2014/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/ |
That's an excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I've read it and watched the clips, and will undoubtedly go through it a few more times because there's a lot to take in.
Two things really stood out for me. Firstly, that the form has evolved substantially in recent decades, from being more of a soft/internal almost tai chi like form, to a much harder and more aggressive style. If my observation is correct, then I'm inclined to lean towards the view held by some historians that out of all the possible translations of the name, the most widely accepted is possibly not the original intention.
The second thing that really jumped out at me was the shotokan bassai dai. It was clearly a natural evolution of earlier versions, and was undoubtedly the closest to what I practice as simply bassai. In fact it was almost identical. Close enough in fact that I'd bet if someone on my club were to perform the shotokan version of bassai dai in a grading instead of doing our version, if they did it well, I reckon they'd still get full marks in that section of the test. Feedback afterwards would possibly be along the lines of showing chambers more and being a bit more direct in some of the moves.
Bassai sho also stood out for me but for different reasons. I saw in that a kind of amalgam of key elements from the pyung ahn/pinnan/heian set as well as bassai dai. Almost like bassai sho is a kind of abridged version of all the forms typically taught to pre dan grade (kyu / geup ) students. We don't have bassai sho at ours, but as it looks like a mix of other bits we do have, I might learnt it for my own interests to see if it sheds more light on the other forms I have so far. |
Watching Kanazawa’s (Shotokan) performance of Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho, Bassai Dai seems a lot closer to the Pinan/Heian series than Bassai Sho does. To be honest, the Pinan/Heian series seems a bit closer to Bassai Dai than the various Kanku kata that the Pinan/Heian allegedly came from. Maybe that’s just me though. I see far more Pinan in Bassai Dai than I see in Kanku. |
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on the post.
