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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:36 am    Post subject: Pinan/Heihan Shodan Reply with quote

In Pinan/Heihan 1, after the first set of moves (to the left and the right), you take 3 steps forward. How was the bunkai explained to you? Lately, I've been going through the bunkai that I know to find the other applications and I'm curious as to what the people here who have learned the kata were taught.

I was taught that they were subtle redirects of punches. Subtly moving a punch out of the way to open up the opponents body. Lately, however, I've been thinking about what this movement would look like if applied as a strike to different parts of the body.

I look forward to seeing what y'all think?
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2553
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm going to assume that you mean Pinan Shodan, rather than Heian Shodan, since Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan. The three steps forward have you working shuto-uke, if that's the case.

A sequence of three techniques repeated is generally telling you to practice the transition from one side to the other. First, you transition from a left shuto-uke to a right shuto-uke, then you transition from a right shuto-uke to a left shuto-uke, so really, your three techniques are actually just one drill, done on both sides. Now, as to how you apply the individual shuto-uke, that's going to vary from person to person, school to school, style to style, etc. Based on my understanding of kata application, however, the hand held close to your body should be holding the opponent's arm, and the arm out in front of you should be attacking the opponent, such that your single technique (shuto-uke) is following the principle of kobo ittai (simultaneous attack and defense) without having a shi-te (dead hand). If you play with that overarching concept, you'll find plenty of ways to get to such a position, and then you just have to figure out what might cause you to have to switch sides. Maybe the opponent blocked your counter strike? Maybe they simply moved? Maybe the punched you again? Or grabbed you? Etc.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Well, I'm going to assume that you mean Pinan Shodan, rather than Heian Shodan, since Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan. The three steps forward have you working shuto-uke, if that's the case.


I did! Thank you for the information, I didn't know that. I thought the two were 1-to-1.

Quote:
Based on my understanding of kata application, however, the hand held close to your body should be holding the opponent's arm


This is interesting, I didn't learn it with a hand held close to the body. In the version I learned, the hand is held midway on the other arm (close to inside of the elbow) as a way to load up the next redirection.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2553
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Well, I'm going to assume that you mean Pinan Shodan, rather than Heian Shodan, since Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan. The three steps forward have you working shuto-uke, if that's the case.


I did! Thank you for the information, I didn't know that. I thought the two were 1-to-1.

Quote:
Based on my understanding of kata application, however, the hand held close to your body should be holding the opponent's arm


This is interesting, I didn't learn it with a hand held close to the body. In the version I learned, the hand is held midway on the other arm (close to inside of the elbow) as a way to load up the next redirection.


That's the arm I'm referring to as being "close to your body," still--it's held across your body, rather than being held out in front of you. If it isn't holding onto the opponent's arm, then there are much better places to hold it, since your opponent will probably want to punch you again.
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Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
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Miick 11
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 59


PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets look at those three steps first. This pattern is in a few kata that (perhaps) evolved from Kusanku. First off 'tai sabaki' or 'getting out the way' . The principle is the same in the 3 forward steps in some pinan and passai forms - either punches or downward 'blocks' .

Note; you are moving forward and 'dealing with' an incoming attack that is also moving forward . Anyone ever do his drill , in your first lessons ;

stand in front stance, left foot forward, bring the right foot forward and into and next to the left in a 1/4 circular like movement . Then step it out forward, another 1/4 circle to be in right front stance . This has the effect, if done right, of getting you off line ( when feet are near together ) of the opponents attack, and past it .

Eg . when used with a 'downward block' , The opponent moves forward with a front kick, you move forward and off line / out of the way, so the kick goes past you. As your feet are near together , your right hand comes across solidly in a sweeping downward 'stabbing' motion
( this is the 'spear ' part of 'Gedan Bari ' ( bari or yari - spear ... 'spear hand block' , actually a 'passing deflection' )
and the right 'winds up' near your right ear, as you then step your right foot out the right hand comes down ( which most consider is the blocking hand ), knuckles out and strikes the side of the kneecap of the opponent , and / or the leg is then caught by it for a throw .

Now, in Pinan , with the hand movements , imagine the same dynamic of getting off line and into that outside position, you are 'going around ' a punch. The hands and arms cross in front of you , the left is checking or deflecting that punch as you move off line from it . Then it checks, holds or presses down a little and the other hand comes in 'rolls over it ' and the opponents arm to do finger strike into their eyes (or other 'weak point') . You should end up ( disregarding the opponent now ) with your right hand extended in nukite and your left about half way along your right forearm and just under it .

Thats how we do the 'shuto' and not as the classic karate 'chop' with the side of the hand . There are techniques where the 'chop' is used ( eg after an upper triangular wedge block with both hands ), then the other hand is checking or holding the other's arm / wrist .

With tai sabaki, defense is primarily , and firstly about 'ducking. weaving' and 'body placement ' .... like it is in boxing .

Why 3 times ? What wastelander said above is valid . Also many other reasons ; from the ancient 'power of three' idea ( or the modern 'three times proves it ) , all the way through to ; you do it one side , practice the other ' or even- the class has more than one student , repeat moves in a form allows the instructor to watch more different people do each move .
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