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chrissyp
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
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Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:36 am    Post subject: Pivoting on the heel of the foot? Reply with quote

Does anyone else do this? My karate school I attend (shotokan), the sensei is teaching me to rotate on the heal of my foot, instead of the balls...not for kicking, but for evasive foot work like stepping and pivoting...does anyone else do this particually? Is there any pros/cons as compared to the balls of the feet?
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DWx
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6148
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pivoting on the heel in TKD is akin to sacrilege. It's a massive no no. Reasoning is that it gives you limited mobility (less ability to push off or suddenly change direction) and less stability. On the balls of your feet your ankle acts as a shock absorber to keep you more stable and control your centre of gravity. On your heels you don't have that ability.

But, when I studied Tai Chi (and I think this is probably more a Chinese thing) it was almost exclusively pivoting on the heel and we didn't turn on the ball at all.

Then of course there is your third option of pivoting through the centre of the feet.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Pivoting on the heel in TKD is akin to sacrilege. It's a massive no no. Reasoning is that it gives you limited mobility (less ability to push off or suddenly change direction) and less stability. On the balls of your feet your ankle acts as a shock absorber to keep you more stable and control your centre of gravity. On your heels you don't have that ability.

But, when I studied Tai Chi (and I think this is probably more a Chinese thing) it was almost exclusively pivoting on the heel and we didn't turn on the ball at all.

Then of course there is your third option of pivoting through the centre of the feet.

Solid post, in which I wholeheartedly agree with!!

In Shindokan, what Danielle speaks towards in her first paragraph above, is the only way we transition at all; it's the smoothness of movement without any resistance and this is to include, but not limited to, sliding, slide-stepping, and shifting.

That ability to use the ball of the foot makes the transition all the more appealing within the close range within the space managements.



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chiliphil1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do find myself doing this sometimes, generally it is when I am going for a very quick spin. I find that I can spin twice as fast on the heel as I can with the ball however the cost of this is that you have less power when you do this and your power comes from the speed in this case because you don't have the same leverage when you spin on your heel. When using the ball of your foot you can push against it so that you can really drive in and you are also much more balanced on the ball. 2 ways of achieving the same end but each with it's pluses and minuses.
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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was originally taught to only ever pivot on the heel. The reasoning behind it was that pivoting on the balls of your feet moved you away from your opponent, and therefor you lost power. Now, I have since learned that this really only applies to specific scenarios, but at the time, we were told that it was the way you were always supposed to pivot. In my current style, we mostly pivot on the heels, but there are some times when we pivot on the balls of the feet. In KishimotoDi, on the other hand, you always pivot on the balls of the feet. Sometimes, I find that pivoting through the center of the foot works better, for me, personally.

When it comes to pivoting, there are pros and cons to every method. They all have situations in which they work best, situations in which they don't work well at all, and situations where it doesn't really matter too much. There are stylistic preferences, but over time you will find your own preferences, as well.
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chrissyp
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
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Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
I was originally taught to only ever pivot on the heel. The reasoning behind it was that pivoting on the balls of your feet moved you away from your opponent, and therefor you lost power. Now, I have since learned that this really only applies to specific scenarios, but at the time, we were told that it was the way you were always supposed to pivot. In my current style, we mostly pivot on the heels, but there are some times when we pivot on the balls of the feet. In KishimotoDi, on the other hand, you always pivot on the balls of the feet. Sometimes, I find that pivoting through the center of the foot works better, for me, personally.

When it comes to pivoting, there are pros and cons to every method. They all have situations in which they work best, situations in which they don't work well at all, and situations where it doesn't really matter too much. There are stylistic preferences, but over time you will find your own preferences, as well.
Thank you! That's what I was thinking. Coming from a mostly boxing/ muay thai background, this is "backwards" to what i've been taught. It feels quicker personally, its just very different and kind akward to what i'm used to, but that's the fun of new styles right? getting out of our comfort zones!
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Spodo Komodo
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Joined: 24 Mar 2010
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Location: Derbyshire, UK
Styles: Wado Ryu, Shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used both heel and ball of the foot pivots, depending on what the pivot was intended to achieve. Generally speaking I have been taught to pivot on the ball of the foot for speed and flexibility but just occasionally you need to keep low and braced in which case a heel pivot can help. If someone puts in a lot of low sweeps I sometimes pivot on the heel as well, I can stick my heel to the ground pretty well if I put all my weight on it and still be able to turn.
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sensei8
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that there are any pros and cons; just different methodologies of how things are executed. What works for one, and not for others, isn't a good or bad thing.

Imho!!



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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always pivoted on the balls of the foot. It just doesn't feel right to move on the heels.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I've always pivoted on the balls of the foot. It just doesn't feel right to move on the heels.

Yeah, it's akin to walking only on the heels; awkward.



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