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Lupin1
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The resource officer for our middle schools has his office in my library. He was telling us the other day about the Krav Maga class they're taking. He seems to love it.

A little more brutal than I personally enjoy, but these guys need to know that stuff...
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
The resource officer for our middle schools has his office in my library. He was telling us the other day about the Krav Maga class they're taking. He seems to love it.

A little more brutal than I personally enjoy, but these guys need to know that stuff...
I can imagine what being in a regular Krav class would be like. I think they tend to mix it up a bit.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
I searched in our area for a school that teaches Krav Maga regularly, and I found one. Also, one of their students trains with us at the Aikido class. I think it is a reflection of what he is being taught that he really struggles with Aikido. He gets really frustrated; he doesn't seem to get the fact that there are no set techniques and responses in our Aikido system. There are principals that you apply to each situation in a fluid and flexible way. The guy just can't get his head around it. I asked at his class how they were taught the Krav Maga, and my suspicions were right. The two ladies and one man who teach there were already Dan grades in Karate and Kick Boxing, fair enough. What happened was that they were approached by a Krav Maga stylist who offered them a series of courses that would adapt what they were already teaching into the Krav Maga way of thinking and system, and after a while they would be qualified to teach Krav Maga, which would be in truth a self defence system that used their previous styles and teaching within the Krav Maga model. Apparently, if you follow, you can call your new system "Krav Maga", use their logo and ethos to advertise and send out to other clubs super human Krav Maga hoodie wearing thugs. I'm not saying that this is what always happens, but it seems that what has happened here is that the Krav Maga teachers have hijacked a perfectly good school with a promise of fame and fortune in the self defence world. I get paired off in the dojo with Superkrav quite often, I find him quite funny but I don't like the swearing.


I find that interesting. Can this individual tell you which organization he is associated with? Because prior to kicking off our week of training, each of us mentioned what other training we have. The instructor did not approach me about adding Krav to the school I train at, or anything of the sort. This could be an offshoot group or something like that. If you find out, let me know what the organization is.

As for his trouble with Aikido, I can understand how he could become frustrated. I've practiced Aikido in the past, and I enjoyed it. But I didn't always find it practical, and could see where I would approach things differently, and where I would try to mix some of my own knowledge into the techniques we did. But I can't say that's the case with your class mate. Perhaps Aikido just isn't his thing.
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Harkon72
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The founder of the Krav Maga franchise is Steve Sohn, he heads the Krav Maga World Wide MMA association. He is also one of the directors of the EFC. And as we know they drive the money machine from America.

Our Kravist friend just can't relax in the Aikido class. The moment he makes contact with you, he tenses and looks for something that is not there, namely a pre arranged technique. This is not how Aikido works, what you search for is your opponent's balance point; if they have passed it, you direct the force of the attack or any aggression so they are no longer a threat. I know it is difficult and a real mind bender when you are learning, but the application is very effective, if you don't have your balance, you are defenceless. The Aikido practitioner can choose how to respond, they can be gentle or they can send you into the ground with force; you sometimes hardly feel the contact and yet they can meet you with a strike or joint pressure that can leave you disabled. To be honest, I was Aikido's greatest sceptic until I experienced it taught well and from the direct linage. There are many even within the style that will never learn the true principals of it. As a Sensei from Ireland said "It's a paradox and it's not apparent as you watch it, and that's how we like it." It seems that our friend wants instant self defence results, unfortunately for him, he must see past the technique as Aikido is more of a feeling than anything you can sell as a paint by numbers system.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like you have a good Aikido experience going there. However, with my brief, and it is brief, experience in Krav Maga, I don't see the issue with pre-arranged technique. The techniques are principle based, and it is pretty aggressive as a system. I'm not sure how much experience your class mate has with it, or why he would tense up. Is he a beginner overall?

I don't know what the EFC is. As far as the instructor courses go, I'm not sure what all those entail, but I'd like to get an opportunity to further what I can do with Krav. From what I've seen of it, if I could get more experience with it, and offer it to the students I have, I would do it, along with what we do as a TKD school. If this is what you are referring to has happened with the instructors of other styles you have mentioned, I really don't see it as a bad thing. They receive some good training and can give it back to their students. If that means I could put on my ads that I offer TKD and Krav, then I think that's a good thing.

The main thing, in my opinion, is to keep the training going with it. No one is served well by attending a seminar and then never practicing what is learned again. That doesn't help anyone.
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Harkon72
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the way they are letting him down is that they let him train twice a week in a system that has not been taught well to them themselves. I have seen Krav Maga applied well, but in this case my suspicion is that they have sold the mythical cure all to this guy. No wonder that he struggles in the Aikido dojo. There are no short cuts in martial arts, there never will be.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
I think that the way they are letting him down is that they let him train twice a week in a system that has not been taught well to them themselves. I have seen Krav Maga applied well, but in this case my suspicion is that they have sold the mythical cure all to this guy. No wonder that he struggles in the Aikido dojo. There are no short cuts in martial arts, there never will be.
I agree that there are no short cuts. But I also believe that some traditional styles take longer than necessary at times in some areas. And I think this is more of an instructor issue than a system issue.

I also wouldn't assume too much about the entirety of Krav Maga from the actions of one practitioner. There could be concepts he has yet to grasp, but who knows. I've been involved in "traditional" styles for my entire MA career, and I learned quite a bit of helpful information from the Krav system.

During the training, we would do a "zig-zag" drill. This was done by lining up in two lines facing each other, leaving room between, and putting one practitioner at the head of the line. Then, the person starts the drill with the first attacker, who would do some kind of random attack; it could be a choke from the front, or gun to the back, whatever we have covered. The student defends the attack, then moves onto the next attacker across, hence the "zig-zag." Its a high-stress situation, where the student has to react to what he's given. The most important concept to keep in mind for this drill was to keep going. Some guys would do something different from the defenses we practiced. But the point of it was to let the concepts taught come through, which would allow the student to finish and move on to the next attacker. So its not all about set defenses against certain attacks. Training tends to start that way, or appear that way, because it gives the student a starting point, and every style I've seen does something like that to start out. Aikido uses wrist grabs to learn various concepts. Karate and TKD styles use one-step and three-step sparring to do this. Wrestlers and BJJer's drill similarly. The goal is to move on, and use the concepts developed from drilling to respond to attacks. From what I've see, that is what Krav seeks to do, as well.
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Harkon72
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I see with Krav Maga is this; it is designed to be taught to security personnel, namely the IDF, to be effective in as shorter time as possible. They can't get away from that. What they try and do is teach it as it were a traditional system and it is not. Self defence systems are great for the military, the police and security staff, but they are not martial arts in themselves. Almost all these systems, Krav Maga, MCMAP, BOJUKA, the list is endless, are in fact moulded by their founders from other, sometimes numerous arts. The context for them to be used is Combat, real life threatening situations. This is a massive paradox in martial arts. Many students have no idea how powerful the techniques they are being taught are. They teach this stuff to children. I'll give you a few examples; "Strike with your knuckle to the Temple." "Stamp with your heel to the opponent's throat." "Push with your fingers down the sternal notch." All three of these techniques could end in severe injury or death. We know that we need the tools to defend ourselves, but students of combat systems need to realize the context of what they are being taught. I've seen people leave the Dojo thinking they can take on ten men, even 8 stone women think this, that's not a sexist comment by the way it's sad fact. I was taught that you may have a chance against two men, three and you're at their mercy, I don't care who you are. Some believe that the general public are idiots, they are not, many cultural classes have a fighting mentality from childhood, they have never been to a Dojo in their lives! "I need to pay for my child to be safe, I don't care what it costs." McDojos thrive on this kind of rubbish. If you are teaching martial arts, please be honest with your students, tell them to walk away, make sure that they know that movies and computer games are not the real world. Krav Maga was designed for a violent society, Warriors don't seek out conflict, if you give an impression of an aggressive mind set, trouble will find you.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
The problem I see with Krav Maga is this; it is designed to be taught to security personnel, namely the IDF, to be effective in as shorter time as possible. They can't get away from that.


True, it was designed to be used by the IDF. I don't know to what extent it is trained with them, but I do know that adult males are required to serve at least 2 years of military service. So, if they are training Krav for 2 years, they'll get effective at it.

I think people misconstrue the "shortest time possible" statement. The idea behind the good systems is that the concepts should be picked up quickly, and the student should be able to start applying them from day one. That is not the same as being a "microwave" style. You have to keep training.

The Police Krav I trained is developed with our country's laws and use-of-force continuum in mind, so it is still effective.

Quote:
What they try and do is teach it as it were a traditional system and it is not. Self defence systems are great for the military, the police and security staff, but they are not martial arts in themselves.


I didn't view how I was learning as being a "traditional" system. Maybe some see it that way, but that was not my experience. I also have to strongly disagree with you when you say it is not a Martial Art in itself. Sure it is. It may not be like Eastern styles, but it is a Martial Art.

Quote:
Almost all these systems, Krav Maga, MCMAP, BOJUKA, the list is endless, are in fact moulded by their founders from other, sometimes numerous arts. The context for them to be used is Combat, real life threatening situations. This is a massive paradox in martial arts. Many students have no idea how powerful the techniques they are being taught are. They teach this stuff to children. I'll give you a few examples; "Strike with your knuckle to the Temple." "Stamp with your heel to the opponent's throat." "Push with your fingers down the sternal notch." All three of these techniques could end in severe injury or death.


Never heard any of those three examples you gave stated in the class I was involved in. And we have cause at times to escalate to lethal threats. I have no doubt that those that designed these systems bring knowledge from other styles. But Shotokan came that way. So did Aikido. So did TKD. So I don't see the concern there.


Quote:
We know that we need the tools to defend ourselves, but students of combat systems need to realize the context of what they are being taught. I've seen people leave the Dojo thinking they can take on ten men, even 8 stone women think this, that's not a sexist comment by the way it's sad fact. I was taught that you may have a chance against two men, three and you're at their mercy, I don't care who you are. Some believe that the general public are idiots, they are not, many cultural classes have a fighting mentality from childhood, they have never been to a Dojo in their lives! "I need to pay for my child to be safe, I don't care what it costs." McDojos thrive on this kind of rubbish. If you are teaching martial arts, please be honest with your students, tell them to walk away, make sure that they know that movies and computer games are not the real world. Krav Maga was designed for a violent society, Warriors don't seek out conflict, if you give an impression of an aggressive mind set, trouble will find you.


This I agree with. And there are some people who will actually try to sell things this way. Again, in my class experience, nothing like this was ever related to me in any way, shape, or form. I agree that being honest with students about what an instructor is teaching is paramount, and that's how I approach teaching, as well.

In the end, it really comes back to the differences between learning an RBSD system and a "traditional" system, and the rivalries that seem to extend between the two. I don't see why one wouldn't want to gain experience in both. They really compliment each other quite well.
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Harkon72
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have realized quite recently that any martial art or combat system is as effective as the way you approach it. Of course, the way it is taught is vital. To say that the student will follow the teacher's mind set is true in many cases. I practice Karate for what its worth, Aikido has been a landslide of realization in actual combat reality, but I think that is to do with the quality of tuition rather than the style; Sensei Halsall is inspirational in his no nonsense outlook. Once a month I travel to Anglesey for Ninpo training with Master Arthur Lock, with this you have no idea what to expect; it can be violent, calm and controlled or profound. He teaches hand to hand, Japanese and Western weapons, daggers, shillelagh and tomahawk. I have a rounded view of martial arts with what is available. I can't advocate the belt every three months for a fee scene or the apparent cure all fads. They come and go, traditions remain, warriorship exists despite the franchises and belt factories. We recognize our legacy, it's who we are.
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