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EmrldWepn
Yellow Belt
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Boston, MA
Styles: Shaolin Kempo
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 Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I totally agree with your point and its something that takes a long time to learn. A fight may last just a few seconds but you have to decide just how far you need to take it usually after the first strike. You don't want to go too light just to have them come after you again and at the same time, you don't want to be breaking their arm in 4 places when a simple punch would have knocked the sense back into them. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is, though, that you can't take into account what the other guy is going to do. We're fighting, not mind reading, at this point. To "assume" what they will do, and to prepare the defense in advance, is just setting oneself up for trouble, in my mind. This is why I avoid the whole "block before striking" mentality. I am not that fast, nor do I have very good reaction time, so I don't intend on putting myself behind the eight ball to start things off.
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: |
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The whole series of steps, similar to those you're talking about, have been the halmark of police use of force levels for quite awhile. More recently, more progressive models have started to place an officer in the center of a cirlce of force options. Using this model, it breaks the officer away from getting stuck on working up a series of steps when jumping a few would be more approprite.
I agree with bushido man on his point. Predetermining what you're reaction or response will be is asking for trouble. That's why you have to train spontaneously in drills, aside from the neuromuscualr connections that you create, it allows for flowing judgements to be made regarding where you are in the use of force model. This will create a higher likelyhood of a correct response level. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Therefore...What's the virtue of a proportional response? |
There is no virtue to a proportional response...it is what it is. At times we only have what we have, therefore, my response will be whatever is necessary in order to deal with what was brought to me. My main goal is survival and if survival means to just run away...then I'm a track star...no...I'm Flash!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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tonydee
Blue Belt
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 253
Location: Japan
Styles: 24 yrs kong soo do, 3 yrs hapkido, bits of others
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Proportional Response |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Do we meet our attacker(s) blow for blow until we gain our escape from intended bodily harm?
OR...
Do we cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war upon our attacker(s) so as to assure our point is well understood?
Therefore...What's the virtue of a proportional response?
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Just to offer up a twist to the discussion... I was once attacked in what might be termed a "hate" crime, singled out for being different from the attacker. Such crimes can be based on myriad things: social status, apparent wealth, sexuality, dress sense, race, age etc., but the psychology of it was simple: the aggressor was about 10cm taller and 20 or 30kgs heavier, and when I dared to question his behaviour in throwing food towards me, took it for granted he could charge me and level me with a haymaker. Not likely. My gentle gliding side kick - deliberately slowed down with flat-of-the-foot contact spread across his chest to avoid serious damage - picked him up and threw him back several meters through the air, where he spent a few minutes on his back - sometimes releasing a torrent of hateful abuse - before tentatively regaining his feet. I stood in a guarding stance which he mimicked, but after a minute of waiting he dropped that, and we returned to a normal standing position. When he looked down at the kebab somehow still in his hand, I warned him that if continued to throw food I'd really let him have it (not my exact words, to be honest). He dropped it on the ground, swore at me a little more, then said he was a little drunk and there was no need for me to go hitting him. I said he should do himself a favour and leave (the latter not my exact phrasing either). He did. I do hope that in obviously using less force than I easily could have, and not backing down or appearing weak where he expected it, he might reconsider his attitudes. That's probably optimistic, but fighting hatred with hatred or violence can be too, and some display of dignity and an ability to command respect might hopefully have broken a negative cycle somewhere in his dim little mind.
Cheers,
Tony |
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Nobodysaidbella
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 28
Styles: American Shotokan/MMA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I would do about half the damage they were intending to do to me. If some girl on the street is looking to pick a fight, I'd just whack her a few times until she understood that she should not be fighting me.
Now if some huge man was coming onto me, or trying to kidnap me, then I wouldn't hesitate to go to town.
I said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it. My sensei once said "If you came at me on the street and tried to take a swing at me, I could go to town and break every bone in your body and have a field day, but who's at fault?" |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Nobodysaidbella wrote: |
I would do about half the damage they were intending to do to me. If some girl on the street is looking to pick a fight, I'd just whack her a few times until she understood that she should not be fighting me.
Now if some huge man was coming onto me, or trying to kidnap me, then I wouldn't hesitate to go to town. |
No offense but I think with that mindset you are already setting yourself up to lose (against the female). Just because the assailent is female doesn't mean that they are going to stop when you give them a few warning whacks. Girls can fight just as nasty as guys and they wont necessarily stop just because you've hit them a couple of times. In fact all the fights I've seen where females are involved, if they get hit a couple of times, it just enrages them and then they really want to hurt the other person.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Nobodysaidbella
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 28
Styles: American Shotokan/MMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
Just because the assailent is female doesn't mean that they are going to stop when you give them a few warning whacks. Girls can fight just as nasty as guys and they wont necessarily stop just because you've hit them a couple of times. In fact all the fights I've seen where females are involved, if they get hit a couple of times, it just enrages them and then they really want to hurt the other person. |
Oh I don't mean literally whack her and call it a day. I mean whatever I need to do to get her to back off. I don't want to smash every bone in her body when a simple chop to the throat would do it, but I'm not averse to using force to make my point.
Also, I'm not saying women don't fight as well as men, but it's the intentions that matter to me. A girl/girl fight is one thing, but if a man tried to attack me, it's probably for a much darker reason, and that's not someone I'm willing to 'whack a few times until they back off. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Even so, I think you should expect the worst from each and every would be attacker. The woman may have dark intentions too. Just because its a female doesn't mean that they wont do certain things.
| Nobodysaidbella wrote: |
| Also, I'm not saying women don't fight as well as men, but it's the intentions that matter to me. A girl/girl fight is one thing, but if a man tried to attack me, it's probably for a much darker reason, and that's not someone I'm willing to 'whack a few times until they back off. |
This is not directed at you specifically Nobodysaidbella, but that brings up another point, when does a proportional/reasonable response turn into something like revenge? Is there a point when it stops being just self defense and you start punishing the person for trying to attack you?
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Nobodysaidbella
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 28
Styles: American Shotokan/MMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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In my mind, I was just thinking of a cat fight, but yeah, you're right.
Revenge is when you go beyond the force necessary for escape. If you've broken someone's leg, then (assuming they don't have friends or weapons) there's no need to continue to trash them, especially if they're obviously not going to be able to fight back. If it's a big deal, like attempted rape, call the police. |
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on the post.
