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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to see what you all think.

Pros
1. Power
2. Well balanced between blocking, punching, kicking, throws, etc.
3. Lots of hiddend moves in the break down of the kata
4. It can be used in either sport or combat and does not favor one over the other.

Cons
1. Not enough work on the ground. (Although the Tekki Kata really help)
2. The tradition of low stances makes cross style sparring difficult
3. The lack of weapons. (However it does teach how to defend aginst them)

I have found this to be true. Shotokan and most other traditional forms of karate are the best place to start. Only because they are so well rounded. If you are wanting to learn how to kickbox or fight in general stay away from Shotokan because of the lack of grond work. However if you plan on cross training. I think you shuld first practice an art like Shotokan so you have a Great base before getting into other arts that focus on fighting above all else.
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Taikudo-ka
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 20 Mar 2002
Posts: 450
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2002 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Although I am not studying Shotokan style, I think your points would hold valid for the style I'm doing as well, to a large degree.

I want to use the Karate as a base to develop from. I'll see how good I can get with it before I start to branch out too much. Most of the beginning stuff is body conditioning and basic movements and control applicable to just about anything, I'd say.

Fortunately my dojo also teaches ju-jitsu and judo, so I can take extra classes if I choose to somewhere down the road.
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ZakariRu
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 01 Mar 2002
Posts: 174


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do you need ground work again? hit someone in the face without a hand protector after training shotokan for X number of years see what happens, human beings are much more fragile then we like to pretend.

and most karate fighters fight the same these days, the shotokan guys look identical to the ****o ryu fighters, goju and wado too. heck even the okinawans throw hook kicks and use the same foot work.
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Taikudo-ka
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 20 Mar 2002
Posts: 450
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehehe Score one for the strikers...



But I do like the idea of grabbing, tripping and throwing my opponent to the ground, where he's extra vulnerable to strikes if I choose.



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Phantasmatic
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 21 Dec 2001
Posts: 586
Location: Dunlap, Illinois
Styles: Goju-Ryu, Shorei-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Kobudo, Judo, Shin-Kage Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I se your interests in the pros and cons of Shotokan. I can tell you almost every single martial art style has its pros and cons in it as well:

Sai Li Fut Kung Fu is extremely fast, but where's the power?

Tai Chi is very flowing and spiritual, but would it work in a fighting scenario?

All styles have their strengths and flaws, but it would take years to state them all!

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"Which one is more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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G95champ
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strikers got one shot to beat a grappler. That is the KO. sure if I hit a guy in the face clean he will go down. However how hard is it to hit anyone in the face clean. If you assume a fight won't be on the ground I will bet you end up there. One is stupid not to trainon the ground if they are looking to be a well rounder martial artist.

I am a firm believer in one punch one kill but you got to make sure that punch lands. Hitting a person and hitting a bag or boards are very differant.

I do agree that most of us in the USA do fight in a freestyle type system. However I was speaking in terms of tradition and class practice. Low stances are great for a leg workout but lots of shotokan students don't realize you are not supposed to fight that low. However I have seen some do it and do it very well.

I personally think if you take a grappler and a striker of equal ability in there given style the grapple will win 9 out of 10 times only because it is hard to land a clean KO like you are talking about.

With that said what grapplers don't realize in a street fight if you go down and they guy you are fighting has friends you are in a lot of trouble. Thus I favor striking over grappleing. Only becasue I am mor likly to be jumped than I am to enter competions.

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Taikudo-ka
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 20 Mar 2002
Posts: 450
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that strikers have "only one chance"... I'm not a pump-action shot-gun!
Shotokan and other karate styles might encourage "one hit one kill" and extremely powerful punches, but this doesn't have to mean you just launch a single all out thrusting punch as the first and only move in every fight.
There's the infamous "That's Wing Chun!" video floating around where the grappler is brought down by a constant, high speed stream of strikes to face, throat, legs, etc, which never let up even as he's attempting to grapple.
Isn't Shotokan and Funakoshi the originator of the "No first attack" philosophy as well?
So wouldn't the true karateka wait for a "grappler" to come in and attempt some grab, thus exposing themselves to counter and attack by the karateka?
So the idea that every Karateka will go wailing feet first into a fight, precariously balanced on one leg and waiting to be taken down, seems anathema to what I know of the Shotokan philosophy.

Also most "real" encounters don't require a knock out/fight to the death for resolution. Most schoolyard bullies are after an easy target. Anyone who demonstrates even potential to return some of the hurt is probably going to be passed over in favor of a less resistant target. Same with muggers. A junkie in need of a fix is just after your wallet, and even the chance of getting his head kicked in will probably make him seek an easier prey. (I think someone on this forum demonstrated exactly that...)

It's only hardcases that want to fight for the fun of it, and a bit of pain just makes them madder, that are really dangerous. And such people are easy to avoid in life.
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Pacificshore
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 1698
Location: West Coast
Styles: Chinese Kenpo/Kara-Ho Kempo

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the absence of my Kempo training, I trained in Shotokan for a couple of years, and found it to be a great art for learning the basics. It was also one of the best arts to learn how to utilize/generate power.

I will say that the low stances are a great workout in itself, however for mobility I didn't care much for them. This is not to say that they were ineffective all the time, but I didn't care much for them when we sparred or tried to work on the one-step type of self defense drills.

As for weapons, I was fortunate enough to have an instructor that crossed trained in traditional kobudo, so I was able to have exposure to the kobudo arts.
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Pacificshore
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 1698
Location: West Coast
Styles: Chinese Kenpo/Kara-Ho Kempo

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the absence of my Kempo training, I trained in Shotokan for a couple of years, and found it to be a great art for learning the basics. It was also one of the best arts to learn how to utilize/generate power.

I will say that the low stances are a great workout in itself, however for mobility I didn't care much for them. This is not to say that they were ineffective all the time, but I didn't care much for them when we sparred or tried to work on the one-step type of self defense drills.

As for weapons, I was fortunate enough to have an instructor that crossed trained in traditional kobudo, so I was able to have exposure to the kobudo arts.
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shotochem
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 901
Location: New York
Styles: Shotokan, Kempo, BJJ, Baby-Do-Jitsu

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I practice shotokan and while the low stances are used in training we generally do not stay as low while sparring. We also in general do not spar in a true stance either, stances are transitional.
Although people speak of the 1 hit 1 kill shotokan people are very capable of throwing multiple techniques and combos. Ive been on the giving and recieving end of them both...

And BTW....we also can kick!!! Not just punch....

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