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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I'm not much of a grappler, but I am familiar with some of it. When you say "pulling guard," does that mean you are forsaking any other position and attempting to pull someone into your guard, onto your back, as opposed to any other kind of takedown attempt?



Yes.

Often seen from two different perspectives. One is a skilled fighter who, lacking takedowns, pulls an opponent on top of them in order to initiate a ground game, albeit from their back.

The second is what I had initially mentioned- people with limited ground experience (often striking or something else) who learn grappling so as to avoid it. Pulling guard seems to kill the idea of avoiding the ground, but often done because they see high level guys do it, so they assume that it must be a good idea or the guard is a good place from which to fight.
Ah, I gotcha now. As one of those stand-up guys that has limited experience in ground fighting (although not from lack of trying), I would much rather be in the mount than try to pull a guard. If I'm going to take someone down, I'd rather end up in the dominant position than in the guard.


You would think, right? That's the reason for the question- wondering if anyone belongs to any school that teaches that and what the reason for it might be.


Some of the very basic (hehe, there's that word again) grappling that I've taught in the course of law enforcement defensive tactics has been covering techniques from the guard, but I don't teach to pull guard. They are basically taught from the perspective of "if you end up here." I don't tell my guys to try to get there.


Indeed. On the definition of “basic” I think most people identify it as “simple.” I don’t think most know how to make their basics effective or efficient however- as in there can be a clear deviation between “simple” and “effective” for many Jiu Jitsu practitioners
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The basics are simple? Then why do so many of my white belts do them wrong for months at a time?


Seriously though, the main problem is that most people do at least SOME of the fundamental movements of the art poorly, even after they are no longer white belts.

This tends to lead to the idea that they need to add some degree of complication to compensate for not doing the fundamentals well.

For an example of someone who does the fundamentals REALLY well, take a look at this video of Rener rolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKVsqjE2lCs&t=12s

Realize that 90% of what he is doing is on their white-blue belt curriculum. He just does it so well, that none of them can stop him.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
The basics are simple? Then why do so many of my white belts do them wrong for months at a time?


Seriously though, the main problem is that most people do at least SOME of the fundamental movements of the art poorly, even after they are no longer white belts.

This tends to lead to the idea that they need to add some degree of complication to compensate for not doing the fundamentals well.

For an example of someone who does the fundamentals REALLY well, take a look at this video of Rener rolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKVsqjE2lCs&t=12s

Realize that 90% of what he is doing is on their white-blue belt curriculum. He just does it so well, that none of them can stop him.


I agree with your notion that many tend to do basics not so well long after they're no longer white belts, and this includes black belts as well... sometimes really good black belts ironically enough....

Far as Rener, I think hes going against a blue belt in that video. Its hard to tell (his belt looks blue). If he is a black belt hes an older one and a hobbyist. I'm not going to judge Rener when hes just playing around.
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Tempest
Green Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the title of the videos says black belts. And I have seen Rener do the same thing to guys that win world titles.

Here is him beating Jason Miller back in '03 at a competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkcFdTWaaY
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey all, sorry for the absence the last few months.

This is a subject near and dear to me on multiple levels. First up, I think any martial arts school that wants to experiment with grappling should do just that- experiment. I think that there are better and worse ways to this, the best being to bring in someone who actually is skilled in the art they are dabbling in. In the case of the guard, bring in a BJJ guy to discuss the how, and most importantly, the WHY. This is the largest overlook in most of these incidents.

BJJ is one of the few arts that actually has a good answer to what to do once you end up on your back in a fight. The guard is our way to control distance in this situation. A critical component of any fighting. Maybe THE critical component. Once established, it lets up keep an opponent out of range as with an open guard, or close distance via breaking posture with the closed guard. Each has a set of tactics that allows a practitioner to fight at that range or regain his footing.

Now, how does that apply to a non-grappling art that may be experimenting? That's up to those fighters. But they need a foundation from an experienced guy or gal.

As to the "why pull guard" question. It's largely one of two things:

1) a competitive tactic that puts a good guard player in position to capitalize on the point reward for sweeps. It awards the same amount of points as a takedown. I don't understand why competitors wouldn't capitalize on a tactic that awards the same points as another BUT from a position that we train from far more often. This is perfectly valid. I think the "you should learn takedowns" hate crowd on guard pulling in competition is silly under the current rules. Want more takedowns? Change the point structure. Until that happens, accept people will pull guard and look to sweep.

2) It's a training modality in some instances that lets people work their guard. If your training SD or MMA you don't WANT to be on your back. This is an overlooked fact. Just because we have an answer doesn't me it's our first option. I'd rather be on top during a ground fight. But if we never practice negative position we'll never have adequate responses from there. Hence, pulling guard lets two partners who are doing stand up primarily move to a ground position to work off their back, and of course the counter. The kind of thing is no different than any other artificial contrivance we put on sparring or live training to specifically work on things.

Now, you have to understand what you're adding grappling to your repertoire for. That's something that people experimenting need to answer right out of the gate. Obviously, 1 and 2 above are two different things with wildly different approach's. Delineating what you want to get out of it is a critical step to maximize growth and prevent frustration.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14332
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
Hey all, sorry for the absence the last few months.

This is a subject near and dear to me on multiple levels. First up, I think any martial arts school that wants to experiment with grappling should do just that- experiment. I think that there are better and worse ways to this, the best being to bring in someone who actually is skilled in the art they are dabbling in. In the case of the guard, bring in a BJJ guy to discuss the how, and most importantly, the WHY. This is the largest overlook in most of these incidents.

BJJ is one of the few arts that actually has a good answer to what to do once you end up on your back in a fight. The guard is our way to control distance in this situation. A critical component of any fighting. Maybe THE critical component. Once established, it lets up keep an opponent out of range as with an open guard, or close distance via breaking posture with the closed guard. Each has a set of tactics that allows a practitioner to fight at that range or regain his footing.

Now, how does that apply to a non-grappling art that may be experimenting? That's up to those fighters. But they need a foundation from an experienced guy or gal.

As to the "why pull guard" question. It's largely one of two things:

1) a competitive tactic that puts a good guard player in position to capitalize on the point reward for sweeps. It awards the same amount of points as a takedown. I don't understand why competitors wouldn't capitalize on a tactic that awards the same points as another BUT from a position that we train from far more often. This is perfectly valid. I think the "you should learn takedowns" hate crowd on guard pulling in competition is silly under the current rules. Want more takedowns? Change the point structure. Until that happens, accept people will pull guard and look to sweep.

2) It's a training modality in some instances that lets people work their guard. If your training SD or MMA you don't WANT to be on your back. This is an overlooked fact. Just because we have an answer doesn't me it's our first option. I'd rather be on top during a ground fight. But if we never practice negative position we'll never have adequate responses from there. Hence, pulling guard lets two partners who are doing stand up primarily move to a ground position to work off their back, and of course the counter. The kind of thing is no different than any other artificial contrivance we put on sparring or live training to specifically work on things.

Now, you have to understand what you're adding grappling to your repertoire for. That's something that people experimenting need to answer right out of the gate. Obviously, 1 and 2 above are two different things with wildly different approach's. Delineating what you want to get out of it is a critical step to maximize growth and prevent frustration.

Solid post!!

Btw, Alex, I missed the heck out of you; glad to see you, sir!!



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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no experience of BJJ at all. So I'll put it out there that I'm not a grappler.

I had to Google 'pulling guard'.

It kind of makes sense to me, to some extent. Coming from a stand up mostly striking style, I'm aware that the most dangerous place to be is at optimum striking range. Pulling guard seems to me to be similar in principle to moving inside the opponent's comfortable range in order to take their balance while being too close for them to strike effectively.

Interestingly, I have always preferred to move in rather than trying to stay just out of range, despite many teachers teaching the latter over the former. And in play fighting I will often use both arms and legs to grip an opponent while trying to 'mock grapple' them (mostly with my sons these days). I used to wonder where this habit came from, giving that I've never trained BJJ. But the more I learn of my current style, with close quarters grappling being an increasing aspect at higher grades, I find myself recognising stuff I thought I'd invented myself. Then I remembered that when I was very young, I trained in judo for a while. I can't really remember much about it, but maybe it was just enough, at just the right stage in my life, to stick. At least at core principle level if not specific technique.

I'd still get my butt kicked by a real grappler though lol.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good
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Tempest
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Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.


Sure in a grappling context I agree- however I’m speaking mostly of a fighting situation as opposed to grappling only
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