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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.


Sure in a grappling context I agree- however I’m speaking mostly of a fighting situation as opposed to grappling only


Even so. As long as your BJJ has included some live training of striking defense, you only have to be better than the person who is in your guard. Although strikes do give them more options, remember that they also expose things as well.

I think we have talked before about the idea that a good guard is a dangerous guard. If, either in a fight or a grappling situation, your opponent feels he can just sit in your guard you are not being active enough off your back.
Every one of those punches should be potentially exposing an arm-lock or a back take. But, in order to make that a thing, you have to put the gloves on and train your guard against strikes sometimes.
And many BJJ schools don't do that.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.


Sure in a grappling context I agree- however I’m speaking mostly of a fighting situation as opposed to grappling only


Even so. As long as your BJJ has included some live training of striking defense, you only have to be better than the person who is in your guard. Although strikes do give them more options, remember that they also expose things as well.

I think we have talked before about the idea that a good guard is a dangerous guard. If, either in a fight or a grappling situation, your opponent feels he can just sit in your guard you are not being active enough off your back.
Every one of those punches should be potentially exposing an arm-lock or a back take. But, in order to make that a thing, you have to put the gloves on and train your guard against strikes sometimes.
And many BJJ schools don't do that.


Well in a nutshell the ability to have an effective guard when strikes are involved in dependant on your ability to keep his posture broken (or his inability to get it...). Not everyone in bjj understands the concept of keeping posture broken as many prefer the double wrist control because it prevents grips and makes passing difficult.

We’re going on quite an tangent here speaking about people with a developed guard game. Someone who’s learning their grappling at a non grappling school is going to be far below the grade in comparison and therefore should not be jumping guard in a fight
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.


Sure in a grappling context I agree- however I’m speaking mostly of a fighting situation as opposed to grappling only


Even so. As long as your BJJ has included some live training of striking defense, you only have to be better than the person who is in your guard. Although strikes do give them more options, remember that they also expose things as well.

I think we have talked before about the idea that a good guard is a dangerous guard. If, either in a fight or a grappling situation, your opponent feels he can just sit in your guard you are not being active enough off your back.
Every one of those punches should be potentially exposing an arm-lock or a back take. But, in order to make that a thing, you have to put the gloves on and train your guard against strikes sometimes.
And many BJJ schools don't do that.


Well in a nutshell the ability to have an effective guard when strikes are involved is dependant on your ability to keep his posture broken (or his inability to get it...). Not everyone in bjj understands the concept of keeping posture broken as many prefer the double wrist control because it prevents grips and makes passing difficult.

We’re going on quite an tangent here speaking about people with a developed guard game. Someone who’s learning their grappling at a non grappling school is going to be far below the grade in comparison and therefore should not be jumping guard in a fight


And someone who is learning their grappling AT a grappling school, when going against a non-grappler, won't need to.
Pulling guard is very much an artifact of one type of grappler fighting another with a different skill-set.
You pull guard against a better wrestler, not against your idiot friend who took that Krav class that one time.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.


Sure in a grappling context I agree- however I’m speaking mostly of a fighting situation as opposed to grappling only


Even so. As long as your BJJ has included some live training of striking defense, you only have to be better than the person who is in your guard. Although strikes do give them more options, remember that they also expose things as well.

I think we have talked before about the idea that a good guard is a dangerous guard. If, either in a fight or a grappling situation, your opponent feels he can just sit in your guard you are not being active enough off your back.
Every one of those punches should be potentially exposing an arm-lock or a back take. But, in order to make that a thing, you have to put the gloves on and train your guard against strikes sometimes.
And many BJJ schools don't do that.


Well in a nutshell the ability to have an effective guard when strikes are involved is dependant on your ability to keep his posture broken (or his inability to get it...). Not everyone in bjj understands the concept of keeping posture broken as many prefer the double wrist control because it prevents grips and makes passing difficult.

We’re going on quite an tangent here speaking about people with a developed guard game. Someone who’s learning their grappling at a non grappling school is going to be far below the grade in comparison and therefore should not be jumping guard in a fight


And someone who is learning their grappling AT a grappling school, when going against a non-grappler, won't need to.
Pulling guard is very much an artifact of one type of grappler fighting another with a different skill-set.
You pull guard against a better wrestler, not against your idiot friend who took that Krav class that one time.


In a grappling context, yes- it’s perfectly normal and common.

If I can put this convo into context I’ll describe the particular video I saw. It was a reputable striking style with a name instructor that I don’t want to say less I be accused of trashing said style.

So the scenario starts off with strikes as the guy narrates it. Speaking from the perspective of the striker:

“My opponent gets too close and clinches, where I’m able to pull guard”

Followed by the guy jumping, not just pulling- full guard from a neutral over/under clinch. Imagine May weather training for an mma fight with this strategy- thats what I mean when I say they’re a little “off” with their strategy
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Blitz4life1212 wrote:
Pulling guard is such a powerful position if you know what your doing. The legs are POWERFUL,, i remember when first starting BJJ a small experienced white belt mauled me with his good guard game. Strenght was no factor there and i had a good4 50lbs on him.


Meh, that’s a loaded statement. If your skill set is significantly greater than your opponents, it can be a good position. Other things that influence this is your opponents skill set on his feet vs yours.

But you’ve got to be really skilled. Like great, not just good


Or at least better than the person you are grappling with.

I know lots of people that I can wreck in my guard. And I am not great. Or even really good. But I am better than them.
I still think top position is preferable, but especially at the white/blue/purple level there can be significant skill gaps that still don't mean the more skilled person is great. Just that they are better than the person they are playing.

What gets scary is the fact that these gaps exist all the way up to black belt. Where there are black belts that can wreck most everyone who ISNT a black belt, but still get wrecked in their own division like they just started.
Nature of the game I guess.


Sure in a grappling context I agree- however I’m speaking mostly of a fighting situation as opposed to grappling only


Even so. As long as your BJJ has included some live training of striking defense, you only have to be better than the person who is in your guard. Although strikes do give them more options, remember that they also expose things as well.

I think we have talked before about the idea that a good guard is a dangerous guard. If, either in a fight or a grappling situation, your opponent feels he can just sit in your guard you are not being active enough off your back.
Every one of those punches should be potentially exposing an arm-lock or a back take. But, in order to make that a thing, you have to put the gloves on and train your guard against strikes sometimes.
And many BJJ schools don't do that.


Well in a nutshell the ability to have an effective guard when strikes are involved is dependant on your ability to keep his posture broken (or his inability to get it...). Not everyone in bjj understands the concept of keeping posture broken as many prefer the double wrist control because it prevents grips and makes passing difficult.

We’re going on quite an tangent here speaking about people with a developed guard game. Someone who’s learning their grappling at a non grappling school is going to be far below the grade in comparison and therefore should not be jumping guard in a fight


And someone who is learning their grappling AT a grappling school, when going against a non-grappler, won't need to.
Pulling guard is very much an artifact of one type of grappler fighting another with a different skill-set.
You pull guard against a better wrestler, not against your idiot friend who took that Krav class that one time.


In a grappling context, yes- it’s perfectly normal and common.

If I can put this convo into context I’ll describe the particular video I saw. It was a reputable striking style with a name instructor that I don’t want to say less I be accused of trashing said style.

So the scenario starts off with strikes as the guy narrates it. Speaking from the perspective of the striker:

“My opponent gets too close and clinches, where I’m able to pull guard”

Followed by the guy jumping, not just pulling- full guard from a neutral over/under clinch. Imagine May weather training for an mma fight with this strategy- thats what I mean when I say they’re a little “off” with their strategy


Well, without the underlying fundamentals that make that strategy a viable one, which would by necessity be conveyed only through long hours of grappling training, they are essentially conceding a critical advantage and possibly the whole fight to their opponent.
But if idiots want to idiot, not much we can do to stop them. Other than demonstrate why almost every current UFC champion is a very high level wrestler.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a lot of assumptions here about people rolling with strikes, SD uses, etc. There's a whole sport side to jiu jitsu where all these arguments are irrelevant. It's all about what people are utilizing it for.

Seriously, go train. Have fun. Do what makes it fun for you.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww
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