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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: Pulling Guard |
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Why don't other fighters (like judoka) act like real men and pull guard more often in fights?
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Just kidding 
Of interest to me was browsing the internet (OMG!! I know I know...) and seeing other places teaching grappling that aren't grappling schools (or not very good at it if they are..) One of the things I see repeated often is "pulling guard." They actually teach their students how to pull guard.
My next question is: when did people see this as a good thing? Why would someone want to pull guard, indeed especially if they're not a ground fighter? There are plenty people who are very experienced grapplers that still refuse to pull guard. I saw a Taijutsu school teaching it (or it was written on their blackboard...) and it was one of the things taught for Jeff Speakmans "Kempo 5.0" |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Probably because they went to a BJJ or Judo school once and got WRECKED by someone pulling guard because they didn't know anything, and they also didn't realize that there opponent was letting them have the top position to work because they obviously didn't know anything.
Then they probably went to some seminars with someone like Keenan to correct the "I don't know anything" or watched some videos, and learned a guard pull as their "Technique". They figure that they get wrecked with it, so it must be a good move right?
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone else?
Maybe we should change this to the “TJ and Tempest forum”
😉 |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:29 am Post subject: |
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To be fair, this is our area of expertise.
I don't go in to the Karate forums and start blathering on like I know the difference between Bassai-Dai and Bassai-sho, cause I don't.
I expect that many of the practitioners here extend us the same courtesy. Though I am wondering where Tallgeese is. That fella is pretty experienced on the ground his own self.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29738
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not much of a grappler, but I am familiar with some of it. When you say "pulling guard," does that mean you are forsaking any other position and attempting to pull someone into your guard, onto your back, as opposed to any other kind of takedown attempt?
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I'm not much of a grappler, but I am familiar with some of it. When you say "pulling guard," does that mean you are forsaking any other position and attempting to pull someone into your guard, onto your back, as opposed to any other kind of takedown attempt? |
Yes.
Often seen from two different perspectives. One is a skilled fighter who, lacking takedowns, pulls an opponent on top of them in order to initiate a ground game, albeit from their back.
The second is what I had initially mentioned- people with limited ground experience (often striking or something else) who learn grappling so as to avoid it. Pulling guard seems to kill the idea of avoiding the ground, but often done because they see high level guys do it, so they assume that it must be a good idea or the guard is a good place from which to fight. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29738
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I'm not much of a grappler, but I am familiar with some of it. When you say "pulling guard," does that mean you are forsaking any other position and attempting to pull someone into your guard, onto your back, as opposed to any other kind of takedown attempt? |
Yes.
Often seen from two different perspectives. One is a skilled fighter who, lacking takedowns, pulls an opponent on top of them in order to initiate a ground game, albeit from their back.
The second is what I had initially mentioned- people with limited ground experience (often striking or something else) who learn grappling so as to avoid it. Pulling guard seems to kill the idea of avoiding the ground, but often done because they see high level guys do it, so they assume that it must be a good idea or the guard is a good place from which to fight. |
Ah, I gotcha now. As one of those stand-up guys that has limited experience in ground fighting (although not from lack of trying), I would much rather be in the mount than try to pull a guard. If I'm going to take someone down, I'd rather end up in the dominant position than in the guard.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I'm not much of a grappler, but I am familiar with some of it. When you say "pulling guard," does that mean you are forsaking any other position and attempting to pull someone into your guard, onto your back, as opposed to any other kind of takedown attempt? |
Yes.
Often seen from two different perspectives. One is a skilled fighter who, lacking takedowns, pulls an opponent on top of them in order to initiate a ground game, albeit from their back.
The second is what I had initially mentioned- people with limited ground experience (often striking or something else) who learn grappling so as to avoid it. Pulling guard seems to kill the idea of avoiding the ground, but often done because they see high level guys do it, so they assume that it must be a good idea or the guard is a good place from which to fight. |
Ah, I gotcha now. As one of those stand-up guys that has limited experience in ground fighting (although not from lack of trying), I would much rather be in the mount than try to pull a guard. If I'm going to take someone down, I'd rather end up in the dominant position than in the guard. |
You would think, right? That's the reason for the question- wondering if anyone belongs to any school that teaches that and what the reason for it might be. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16046
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Tempest wrote: |
To be fair, this is our area of expertise.
I don't go in to the Karate forums and start blathering on like I know the difference between Bassai-Dai and Bassai-sho, cause I don't.
I expect that many of the practitioners here extend us the same courtesy. Though I am wondering where Tallgeese is. That fella is pretty experienced on the ground his own self. |
Hey, just wait a second, ahem, Shindokan, an Okinawan Karate style, teaches grappling, and not from a curious stand point; we can hold our own quite well on the ground. 
I, too, have been wondering as of late...where's tallgeese?? 
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29738
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I'm not much of a grappler, but I am familiar with some of it. When you say "pulling guard," does that mean you are forsaking any other position and attempting to pull someone into your guard, onto your back, as opposed to any other kind of takedown attempt? |
Yes.
Often seen from two different perspectives. One is a skilled fighter who, lacking takedowns, pulls an opponent on top of them in order to initiate a ground game, albeit from their back.
The second is what I had initially mentioned- people with limited ground experience (often striking or something else) who learn grappling so as to avoid it. Pulling guard seems to kill the idea of avoiding the ground, but often done because they see high level guys do it, so they assume that it must be a good idea or the guard is a good place from which to fight. |
Ah, I gotcha now. As one of those stand-up guys that has limited experience in ground fighting (although not from lack of trying), I would much rather be in the mount than try to pull a guard. If I'm going to take someone down, I'd rather end up in the dominant position than in the guard. |
You would think, right? That's the reason for the question- wondering if anyone belongs to any school that teaches that and what the reason for it might be. |
Some of the very basic (hehe, there's that word again) grappling that I've taught in the course of law enforcement defensive tactics has been covering techniques from the guard, but I don't teach to pull guard. They are basically taught from the perspective of "if you end up here." I don't tell my guys to try to get there.
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on the post.
