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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6857
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 2:42 pm    Post subject: Punch Block Sequence Reply with quote

One thing about jiu jitsu that we can't forget is that as much as we talk about the art aspect, as fun as it is to compete, it is at it's heart designed for self defense. It is a martial art. We can't lose that aspect.

Because it's so easy to get away from that, we added a class specific to those goals. Here's a look at some of our training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90EgH8Tk0PQ

So, how many grapplers here integrate striking? Conversely, if the strikers here cross train in grappling, do you strike while you're there? Do you take the time to look at what is effective based on position? This is where I see a lot of break down on the striking end.
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MAfreak
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Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 96
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like to do both:
train grappling without striking for being technical,
as well as
train grappling with striking to not forget what could also help (or happen to me) in a real situation.

when i teached, i liked to call different escapes from the same situiations the good-sportsmanship-method (escape via grappling technique) and the bad-sportsmanship- or street-method (for example groin strikes when being in a headlock etc.).

btw. it sounds better and shorter in my language german (sportliche & unsportliche methode; "sportlich" means "sporty" or "athletic" as well as "being fair").
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ps1
Black Belt
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Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the time. As Rener says, "If you never train with punches, you're not doing Gracie Jiu-Jitsu."
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2552
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good stuff, Alex! We work VERY similar methods for this scenario, actually, which I find to be really interesting since we aren't a BJJ school, although my Sensei did train at a shootfighting gym when he was younger. It's nice to see the same types of methods being developed by different arts, and you've given me some little differences to play with. Thanks!
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Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15454
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me say this, because I believe that it's quite important...

Please...Please...Please believe me that I'm not criticizing your methodology and/or ideology at all; they're solid!! No. I'm just speaking about what I see, feel, and have experienced for myself.

First thing I saw, Alex, was that you're not taking in consideration for the straight punch/jab/etc to the chin, but only covering the punch that travels along a wide arc to head/face, as in time stamp 0:52-0:58.

Soon as you see the hand moving to punch, you seize your opponent, thusly, arresting the arm and so on, and that's solid, but I don't see you addressing the straight punch to the gap between the elbow, while the hands are covering either side of the face/head. It's that small opening that I'd attack with a fever, especially if my opponent's offering that small opening for me to attack repeatedly and that often.

Still, as always, Alex, solid tutorial!!



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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6857
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Let me say this, because I believe that it's quite important...

Please...Please...Please believe me that I'm not criticizing your methodology and/or ideology at all; they're solid!! No. I'm just speaking about what I see, feel, and have experienced for myself.

First thing I saw, Alex, was that you're not taking in consideration for the straight punch/jab/etc to the chin, but only covering the punch that travels along a wide arc to head/face, as in time stamp 0:52-0:58.

Soon as you see the hand moving to punch, you seize your opponent, thusly, arresting the arm and so on, and that's solid, but I don't see you addressing the straight punch to the gap between the elbow, while the hands are covering either side of the face/head. It's that small opening that I'd attack with a fever, especially if my opponent's offering that small opening for me to attack repeatedly and that often.

Still, as always, Alex, solid tutorial!!




Thank you, and great comment. I always start out teaching from a wider punch for a couple of reasons. First up, it is, quite frankly despite what we teach in MA classes everywhere of every type, the most common punching attack we face from any position. Given the amount of fights I've seen, broken up, and been part of on the job, I really believe that this is true a preponderance of the time. Second, for new people or people new to a skill set, the added travel time makes it easier to see and begin to learn the movement.

That said, it's important to play with the straight punch as well. The concept is actually the same, I'll attack the straight punch before it launches. Setting up from guard and pulling with the legs. This has the same effect with the straight punch as it does the hooking punch. It takes energy out because there is less travel and preempts the travel. The trap will be slightly more difficult, but a simple pummel will work.

It's important to note, I really believe that no system, or set of movements, from any position will make one immune to getting hit, or hurt, or worse. It's a fight, things happen- no matter how well prepared. We'll be free rolling with strikes and occasionally someone comments that they re getting hit despite attempting the correct set of responses. I always comment, it's a fight. There are no guarantees.

When we start to roll free is when participants are encouraged to take the tactics and play with them across different angles and different energies to find these little adjustments.

Great point, I'm glad it came up in discussion.
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T.j
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 04 Jun 2016
Posts: 3
Location: Olney il
Styles: mixed

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tallgeese is right on. I have found a lot changes when punches start to get throne . If you don't train fore the ground and pound you will suffer from it .
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15454
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Let me say this, because I believe that it's quite important...

Please...Please...Please believe me that I'm not criticizing your methodology and/or ideology at all; they're solid!! No. I'm just speaking about what I see, feel, and have experienced for myself.

First thing I saw, Alex, was that you're not taking in consideration for the straight punch/jab/etc to the chin, but only covering the punch that travels along a wide arc to head/face, as in time stamp 0:52-0:58.

Soon as you see the hand moving to punch, you seize your opponent, thusly, arresting the arm and so on, and that's solid, but I don't see you addressing the straight punch to the gap between the elbow, while the hands are covering either side of the face/head. It's that small opening that I'd attack with a fever, especially if my opponent's offering that small opening for me to attack repeatedly and that often.

Still, as always, Alex, solid tutorial!!




Thank you, and great comment. I always start out teaching from a wider punch for a couple of reasons. First up, it is, quite frankly despite what we teach in MA classes everywhere of every type, the most common punching attack we face from any position. Given the amount of fights I've seen, broken up, and been part of on the job, I really believe that this is true a preponderance of the time. Second, for new people or people new to a skill set, the added travel time makes it easier to see and begin to learn the movement.

That said, it's important to play with the straight punch as well. The concept is actually the same, I'll attack the straight punch before it launches. Setting up from guard and pulling with the legs. This has the same effect with the straight punch as it does the hooking punch. It takes energy out because there is less travel and preempts the travel. The trap will be slightly more difficult, but a simple pummel will work.

It's important to note, I really believe that no system, or set of movements, from any position will make one immune to getting hit, or hurt, or worse. It's a fight, things happen- no matter how well prepared. We'll be free rolling with strikes and occasionally someone comments that they re getting hit despite attempting the correct set of responses. I always comment, it's a fight. There are no guarantees.

When we start to roll free is when participants are encouraged to take the tactics and play with them across different angles and different energies to find these little adjustments.

Great point, I'm glad it came up in discussion.

Knowing that you're addressing the hooking type punch over the straight in that tutorial, I retract my point(s).

I wholeheartedly concur that anything and everything is possible, thusly, there are no guarantees, whatsoever; things happen, and no one is immune to being hit, no matter who one is.

The straight punch leaves little time to defend it, as you've mentioned, than the hook. However, how the straight punch is delivered, does change the parameters about either one. You and I can hold our hands just like in the aforementioned time stamp, and still sense movement changes as to the forthcoming straight punch, and react effectively to it, unlike our students...for the moment.



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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh, I'll jump in on this one...

The straight punch really isn't much of a threat from inside the guard and I'll explain why. Typical straight punches (from the feet) have their power generated well.... from the feet. The push off the ground, the drive of the hips, and the twist of the body allows for a very powerful straight punch attack. Part of this theoretically could still work from the guard, but you'd be pushing off of your knee rather than your foot at best and suffer from having enough space to deliver the punch which brings us to our next point.... Breaking posture

Really the primary defense to blocking (or in this case preventing) punching is breaking posture. A jiu jitsu fighter is always trying to pull the person on top closer and minimize space (usually). Straight punches work best from a distance. Both parties are locked in a particular range that stays relatively constant- this means that you're too close for something like a straight cross or anything of that nature. Stand elbows length in front of a heavy bag and try to throw a straight cross- it doesn't work because you're too close. The bend in the elbow as seen in haymakers, uppercuts, and hooks allows a puncher to create more space for the arm to travel to unwind so that the strike reaches potential.

Now does this mean that a straight punch cant be done? I wouldn't go that far, but I would go far to say that it doesn't matter. Whats going to allow the person on top to throw effective punches is going to be their grappling skill and their ability to get and maintain posture. As the person on top you really don't have to worry about the person on bottom punching you back, nor do you have to worry about where your opponent will be. So I could work and develop a straight punch to use from inside the guard, but I think it'd be over engineered for the job and not needed at all.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Meh, I'll jump in on this one...

The straight punch really isn't much of a threat from inside the guard and I'll explain why. Typical straight punches (from the feet) have their power generated well.... from the feet. The push off the ground, the drive of the hips, and the twist of the body allows for a very powerful straight punch attack. Part of this theoretically could still work from the guard, but you'd be pushing off of your knee rather than your foot at best and suffer from having enough space to deliver the punch which brings us to our next point.... Breaking posture

Really the primary defense to blocking (or in this case preventing) punching is breaking posture. A jiu jitsu fighter is always trying to pull the person on top closer and minimize space (usually). Straight punches work best from a distance. Both parties are locked in a particular range that stays relatively constant- this means that you're too close for something like a straight cross or anything of that nature. Stand elbows length in front of a heavy bag and try to throw a straight cross- it doesn't work because you're too close. The bend in the elbow as seen in haymakers, uppercuts, and hooks allows a puncher to create more space for the arm to travel to unwind so that the strike reaches potential.

Now does this mean that a straight punch cant be done? I wouldn't go that far, but I would go far to say that it doesn't matter. Whats going to allow the person on top to throw effective punches is going to be their grappling skill and their ability to get and maintain posture. As the person on top you really don't have to worry about the person on bottom punching you back, nor do you have to worry about where your opponent will be. So I could work and develop a straight punch to use from inside the guard, but I think it'd be over engineered for the job and not needed at all.

Solid post!!

As to the bold type above...

I believe that it would depend on who's delivering said punch; knowledge/experience can make all of the difference...again, it depends on who's executing said punch. I can generate quite a lot of power in my straight punch, standing or not. Connecting with the straight punch to the chin/face doesn't have to be a deciding factor because I might just want my opponent to move his/her hands from the side of their head so I can have more options. Also, let's not rule out that not many can take a straight punch, or any punch for that fact, to the chin/face; they quickly retreat in haste, and that's all the time one might need to end it all; distraction isn't mastered by everyone.



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