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CTTKDKing
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: Connecticut
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Greco Wrestling, Muay Thai, Sho Bin Ju, Boxing

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:26 am    Post subject: Putin's 9th Dan Reply with quote

https://whitedragondojang.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/the-wtf-giving-vladimir-putin-an-honorary-9th-dan-black-belt-was-a-mistake/

So maybe this is old news, but I stumbled across this last night and I can't help but wonder what the WTF was thinking. I hold a 2nd Dan in WTF Taekwondo myself and I know how difficult that was to achieve. Awarding an honorary 9th Dan to someone who's not earned it seems to be unethical and degrade the meaning of black belt.

Thoughts?
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not upset about the WTF giving honorary rank. The WTF doesn't give actual rank anyway. It's the sole privelege of Kukkiwon that gives real rank. The WTF can give out honorary rank if they choose.

The fact that they chose to give honorary rank to Putin is the questionable point, however. Rolling out the red carpet for dignitaries is what governments do. It's easy to bristle at this because it actually means something to US (MAists) but it means little to the general population. At the end of the day, it's an honorary rank from the branch of TKD that doesn't give real rank. It means merely that Putin made a trip to South Korea. That's all.
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CTTKDKing
Orange Belt
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Location: Connecticut
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Greco Wrestling, Muay Thai, Sho Bin Ju, Boxing

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
I'm not upset about the WTF giving honorary rank. The WTF doesn't give actual rank anyway. It's the sole privelege of Kukkiwon that gives real rank. The WTF can give out honorary rank if they choose.

The fact that they chose to give honorary rank to Putin is the questionable point, however. Rolling out the red carpet for dignitaries is what governments do. It's easy to bristle at this because it actually means something to US (MAists) but it means little to the general population. At the end of the day, it's an honorary rank from the branch of TKD that doesn't give real rank. It means merely that Putin made a trip to South Korea. That's all.


Interesting. I always thought the WTF and the Kukkiwon were one and the same, but upon Googling around for a min I see that you are correct.

While I now get the point, I still feel like this further deteriorates the meaning of earning a high level black belt. I know some universities have granted honorary doctorates in the past (i even knew one who received an honorary doctorate) but, this person went to the university to give a talk in a specific subject and blew them away as a self taught expert on the subject. So much so that their own professors started collaborating with him to bolster their own courses. A year of this activity granted him an honorary doctorate from that college.

I feel like this is the same thing without the activity of having to prove yourself.
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTTKDKing wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I'm not upset about the WTF giving honorary rank. The WTF doesn't give actual rank anyway. It's the sole privelege of Kukkiwon that gives real rank. The WTF can give out honorary rank if they choose.

The fact that they chose to give honorary rank to Putin is the questionable point, however. Rolling out the red carpet for dignitaries is what governments do. It's easy to bristle at this because it actually means something to US (MAists) but it means little to the general population. At the end of the day, it's an honorary rank from the branch of TKD that doesn't give real rank. It means merely that Putin made a trip to South Korea. That's all.


Interesting. I always thought the WTF and the Kukkiwon were one and the same, but upon Googling around for a min I see that you are correct.

While I now get the point, I still feel like this further deteriorates the meaning of earning a high level black belt. I know some universities have granted honorary doctorates in the past (i even knew one who received an honorary doctorate) but, this person went to the university to give a talk in a specific subject and blew them away as a self taught expert on the subject. So much so that their own professors started collaborating with him to bolster their own courses. A year of this activity granted him an honorary doctorate from that college.

I feel like this is the same thing without the activity of having to prove yourself.


Honorary doctorates from universities is exactly the paralell here. Nearly every college & university gives that honor to every commencement speaker around the US. It doesn't mean they can call themselves "Doctor" in any real way. Putin is a genuine Judo practioner, but no one would ask his advice on Taekwondo given his honorary rank. If they did, they'd deserve the bad advice they'd receive.
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CTTKDKing
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
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Location: Connecticut
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Greco Wrestling, Muay Thai, Sho Bin Ju, Boxing

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
CTTKDKing wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I'm not upset about the WTF giving honorary rank. The WTF doesn't give actual rank anyway. It's the sole privelege of Kukkiwon that gives real rank. The WTF can give out honorary rank if they choose.

The fact that they chose to give honorary rank to Putin is the questionable point, however. Rolling out the red carpet for dignitaries is what governments do. It's easy to bristle at this because it actually means something to US (MAists) but it means little to the general population. At the end of the day, it's an honorary rank from the branch of TKD that doesn't give real rank. It means merely that Putin made a trip to South Korea. That's all.


Interesting. I always thought the WTF and the Kukkiwon were one and the same, but upon Googling around for a min I see that you are correct.

While I now get the point, I still feel like this further deteriorates the meaning of earning a high level black belt. I know some universities have granted honorary doctorates in the past (i even knew one who received an honorary doctorate) but, this person went to the university to give a talk in a specific subject and blew them away as a self taught expert on the subject. So much so that their own professors started collaborating with him to bolster their own courses. A year of this activity granted him an honorary doctorate from that college.

I feel like this is the same thing without the activity of having to prove yourself.


Honorary doctorates from universities is exactly the paralell here. Nearly every college & university gives that honor to every commencement speaker around the US. It doesn't mean they can call themselves "Doctor" in any real way. Putin is a genuine Judo practioner, but no one would ask his advice on Taekwondo given his honorary rank. If they did, they'd deserve the bad advice they'd receive.


Fair enough.
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JR 137
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Joined: 10 May 2015
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Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Russian Kyokushin Karate Federation awarded him an 8th dan about a year after the WTF's 9th dan. It was reportedly for spreading/promoting Kyokushin in Russia.

Honorary ranks are paper ranks. They don't mean much, other than "thanks." Not sure what the etiquette would be if he walked into a Kyokushin dojo, let alone to train. Does he line up as an 8th dan? Does he spar with other 8th dans? I'd love to see him spar a few high ranking Kyokushin guys bare knuckle. How'd it go against Kazumi Hajime?

EDIT: Didn't realize Kazumi Hajime left Kyokushin.


Last edited by JR 137 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
CTTKDKing wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I'm not upset about the WTF giving honorary rank. The WTF doesn't give actual rank anyway. It's the sole privelege of Kukkiwon that gives real rank. The WTF can give out honorary rank if they choose.

The fact that they chose to give honorary rank to Putin is the questionable point, however. Rolling out the red carpet for dignitaries is what governments do. It's easy to bristle at this because it actually means something to US (MAists) but it means little to the general population. At the end of the day, it's an honorary rank from the branch of TKD that doesn't give real rank. It means merely that Putin made a trip to South Korea. That's all.


Interesting. I always thought the WTF and the Kukkiwon were one and the same, but upon Googling around for a min I see that you are correct.

While I now get the point, I still feel like this further deteriorates the meaning of earning a high level black belt. I know some universities have granted honorary doctorates in the past (i even knew one who received an honorary doctorate) but, this person went to the university to give a talk in a specific subject and blew them away as a self taught expert on the subject. So much so that their own professors started collaborating with him to bolster their own courses. A year of this activity granted him an honorary doctorate from that college.

I feel like this is the same thing without the activity of having to prove yourself.


Honorary doctorates from universities is exactly the paralell here. Nearly every college & university gives that honor to every commencement speaker around the US. It doesn't mean they can call themselves "Doctor" in any real way. Putin is a genuine Judo practioner, but no one would ask his advice on Taekwondo given his honorary rank. If they did, they'd deserve the bad advice they'd receive.

Solid post!!




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sensei8
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
The Russian Kyokushin Karate Federation awarded him an 8th dan about a year after the WTF's 9th dan. It was reportedly for spreading/promoting Kyokushin in Russia.

Honorary ranks are paper ranks. They don't mean much, other than "thanks." Not sure what the etiquette would be if he walked into a Kyokushin dojo, let alone to train. Does he line up as an 8th dan? Does he spar with other 8th dans? I'd love to see him spar a few high ranking Kyokushin guys bare knuckle. How'd it go against Kazumi Hajime?

Solid post!!



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sensei8
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
I'm not upset about the WTF giving honorary rank. The WTF doesn't give actual rank anyway. It's the sole privelege of Kukkiwon that gives real rank. The WTF can give out honorary rank if they choose.

The fact that they chose to give honorary rank to Putin is the questionable point, however. Rolling out the red carpet for dignitaries is what governments do. It's easy to bristle at this because it actually means something to US (MAists) but it means little to the general population. At the end of the day, it's an honorary rank from the branch of TKD that doesn't give real rank. It means merely that Putin made a trip to South Korea. That's all.

Solid post!!




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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our Soke was dead against Honorary BB's of any type. His opinion on this type of award was..."NO!!"




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