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Thai_Kick
Orange Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 207
Location: Ontario, Canada
Styles: Muay Thai, JKD and Kali
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 Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| but how do you know that the karate person didn't just modify their stances or blocks? Again it boils down to application. |
Why would you have to modify the techniques? Is it because the original form dosen't work in a fight or realistic stiuation?If you have to modify the techniques then is it still Karate?
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Limits Are Not Accepted. They Are Elbowed, Kicked And Punched. |
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ramymensa
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 1450
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Effectiveness of karate ... hmmm
Take a good practitioner and fight with him/her ... then we'll talk about it 
At first glance karatekas don't seem able to fight, because of theit training program which is rigid and "step-by-step". you don't learn to fight from the first time you enter the dojo. You spend months just kicking and punching the air, taking care of the 40% of the weight on a leg, the angle your hand must stay, the way to "shuffle" your feet ... boring aspects that make training seem senseless. But after many months of enduring this you sparr and move quick, you are able to apply powerful kicks and punches, able to chose your stance rapidly and effective. Is karate effective or not? Well who cares? If you train in this, maybe you've discovered something 
Whatever the style you train ... do it with dedication, try to improve, to give all you can ... and you'll be effective
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World Shotokan Karate |
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Kensai
Black Belt
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 1415
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:23 am Post subject: |
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lol, personally I think I would stand more of a chance vs Mauy Thai than I would against a Shaolin Monk or a Wudang Master. Thats not to say that I would last long against a Mauy Thai boxer either.
Thai_Kick, you asked me why Shoalin and the Wudang Kung Fu are any better than Mauy Thai, I think I will only answer with the reverse, what makes Mauy Thai better.?
But please dont tell me that Mauy Thai boxers train any harder than the Shaolin Monks, because that just it'nt true. If you think so, then get Wong Kiew Kit's book on the Shaolin and see for yourself. To train your skin so that it can smash through rock and take direct strikes with a live bladed sword takes more than just muscle.
IMHO, MMA events are no measure of the effectiveness of a style, many of the great Wudang, Shaolin, Wing Chun, Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Karate, TKD, TSD would not fight in a MMA event. Thats because we are not about competetion and fighting. Please dont take offence, I am not saying MT is no good, because that would be dumb.
All these styles I have mentioned are equal to that of Mauy Thai in effectiveness, but you have to balance what you want. Do you want to get good in a few months then have to quit at 35 because the young 19 year olds can smash you to pieces, or take a life time to perfect what you have learnt and with every passing year get stronger until you die. I know which one I have choosen.
Take Care. |
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Pacificshore
Black Belt
Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 1698
Location: West Coast
Styles: Chinese Kenpo/Kara-Ho Kempo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Thai_Kick wrote: |
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| but how do you know that the karate person didn't just modify their stances or blocks? Again it boils down to application. |
Why would you have to modify the techniques? Is it because the original form dosen't work in a fight or realistic stiuation?If you have to modify the techniques then is it still Karate? |
[quote]
Because modification in any art is just the growth of the paractioner, and the understanding of their chosen art. Plus anyone knows that in a fight, whether street or sparring, you have to take in account the movements of your opponent. I'm sure this is the same for the Muay Thai fighter. Working out against a heavy bag with kicks and punches changes when they face an opponent in the ring. So, my answer is YES, it's still karate |
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Red J
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 2278
Location: WPB, FL
Styles: Shaolin Kempo Sandan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Pacificshore wrote: |
Because modification in any art is just the growth of the paractioner, and the understanding of their chosen art. Plus anyone knows that in a fight, whether street or sparring, you have to take in account the movements of your opponent. I'm sure this is the same for the Muay Thai fighter. Working out against a heavy bag with kicks and punches changes when they face an opponent in the ring. So, my answer is YES, it's still karate |
You also take into account the opponent's size and height, your terrain, your location, what kind of shoes you have on, what you are wearing, etc, etc. There is no standard application of any MA, is there?
I totally agree that Karate (or any MA) gives you a base to work from.
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I had to lose my mind to come to my senses. |
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aes
Green Belt
Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 374
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Styles: Okinawan Shorin-ryu Karate
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Thai_Kick wrote: |
What would make you think this about kickboxing and boxing? |
Just because they are simple and straightforward and effective counter attacks are easily performed. A boxer can have a ton of power in his punch, but if I see it coming and break his arm after his first punch, all this is kind of useless IMO.
As for kicks, seems to me the same concept is present. I am not likely to break the attacker's leg but key knowledge of specific nerve areas can make the leg go to rubber.
I am not speaking from any experience here, just my thoughts and what I have heard. I have never been in a street fight and hope I never will be.
Al
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43 Years old
Blue Belt (7th Kyu) Shorin-ryu
Roberts Karate |
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Thai_Kick
Orange Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 207
Location: Ontario, Canada
Styles: Muay Thai, JKD and Kali
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I think I will only answer with the reverse, what makes Mauy Thai better.?
But please dont tell me that Mauy Thai boxers train any harder than the Shaolin Monks, because that just it'nt true. If you think so, then get Wong Kiew Kit's book on the Shaolin and see for yourself. To train your skin so that it can smash through rock and take direct strikes with a live bladed sword takes more than just muscle. |
I don't have to give a reason of why MuayThai is better, the style speaks for it's self. Oh Kensai, how many people in the world can do what it is shown in Wong Kiew's book, NOT MANY, VERY, VERY FEW PEOPLE! How many Muay Thai students are effective fighters? MANY! TONS! HUNDREDS! THOUSANDS... Now doing this skin training is all fine and dandy when you have lots of time to considerate your Ki/Chi, but in a street fight you have only seconds to defend yourself or fight, therefore making the technique unusable in a street fight or a MMA tournament. Since Muay Thai techniques are easily executable, powerful, and effective it makes it the better standup style.
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Limits Are Not Accepted. They Are Elbowed, Kicked And Punched. |
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Kensai
Black Belt
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 1415
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Ignorance is not always an excuse.
Take Care. |
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Thai_Kick
Orange Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 207
Location: Ontario, Canada
Styles: Muay Thai, JKD and Kali
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ignorance is not always an excuse |
Excuses me! You do you think you are?
Buddy, if you don't like the truth and facts that I give you, then fine! BUT NEVER EVER IMPLIY I'M IGNORANT!
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Limits Are Not Accepted. They Are Elbowed, Kicked And Punched. |
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Kensai
Black Belt
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 1415
Location: Britain
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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No offence, but I shall do as I wish. I am only stating that from what I read of your replies, they are a little one sided. I can have an opiniuon right, like you said in another post, "freedom of speech"  For you to implie that Shaolin cant be used in the street is wrong, you then appeared to know nothing of Shaolin, so therefore ignorant.
I merely disagreed with your "fact" and I use that term losely, that MT is the greatest stand up style. I said that it was not. You merely then repleated what you said before. Really only forming as your arguement that there are a lot more MT practioners than Shaolin. This is for one main reason, the chinese are very secretive of the MA's, over the next few years, Shoalin and all Chinese styles will come into the West. Also to learn the Shaolin arts, one must dediate years of learning, which cant be done in the modern world where most people have 9 till 5's.
Sorry to the rest of the room for my rant, but somethings are best said.
Take Care
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on the post.
