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Titanium
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Aug 2015
Posts: 259
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Styles: Wado-Kai & Shotokan
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 Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Everyone I have ever met with an authentic, verifiable seventh Dan or above was at least sixty years old and had begun to training in their teens. |
Exactly! 
My 7th Dan Sensei is nearly 70 and is 5 years overdue for his 8th Dan.
"With age comes wisdom"
_________________
“Spirit first, technique second.” – Gichin Funakoshi |
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chiliphil1
Orange Belt
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Titanium wrote: |
I think it's rare to see 9th and 10th Dan masters now; at this level you are very old/elderly.
6th, 7th and 8th Dan senior ranks are very commendable.
There are a lot of fake black belts in the UK too who self promote; this is absurd. In my eyes, this is a disrespectful gesture to genuine senior ranks and the art. |
I recently watched a video of some Okinawan masters training and there were FIVE red belts in the room along with 3 renshi belts, amazing to see so many high ranking individuals in the same room.
On topic, isn't this what Chuck Norris did? He's the one and only 10th dan in UFAF, so who graded him?
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Black belt AFAF # 178
Tang Soo Do
8th Kyu
Matsubayashi ryu shorin ryu karate |
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 883
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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It's not uncommon for Okinawan (legitimate anyway) masters to gather and train together from time to time.
As for Chuck Norris...I'm not sure who promoted him, but I'd assume that as the founder of his system he's pretty much understood to be a 10th dan...he certainly has the time and effort into it imo. I'm not a fan of the Korean systems, but for years CN has cross trained with other systems so the TSD he origionally learned is just the core system for his organization, which bears little semblance to TSD as he learned it.
He sold his franchises many years ago (they still have his name on them though) and only trains the black belts once/year in Las Vegas..or that's what he was doing some time ago. I don't follow him so no clue what he does any longer.
_________________
If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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Titanium
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Aug 2015
Posts: 259
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Styles: Wado-Kai & Shotokan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| chiliphil1 wrote: |
| Titanium wrote: |
I think it's rare to see 9th and 10th Dan masters now; at this level you are very old/elderly.
6th, 7th and 8th Dan senior ranks are very commendable.
There are a lot of fake black belts in the UK too who self promote; this is absurd. In my eyes, this is a disrespectful gesture to genuine senior ranks and the art. |
I recently watched a video of some Okinawan masters training and there were FIVE red belts in the room along with 3 renshi belts, amazing to see so many high ranking individuals in the same room.
On topic, isn't this what Chuck Norris did? He's the one and only 10th dan in UFAF, so who graded him? |
I understand that Chuck Norris founded that 'hybrid' style.
From this I assume he promoted himself to 10th Dan along with the status of Chief Instructor.
With so many high ranking Dan grades this is either:
> Suspicious
> Generally talented practitioners
Being masters, I suspect that it is the second point.
_________________
“Spirit first, technique second.” – Gichin Funakoshi |
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hammer
Green Belt
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 370
Styles: Kyokushin, TKD
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Question I have is that, for ranks beyond 4th Dan, how should technical skill weigh in comparison to the contributions made to the art?
The impression I have had of some higher ranks is that they got promoted more because of their contributions to the school/organization than any skill improvement. Not that those people didn't have skills, it's just that their promotions didn't seem to be based on getting any better technically. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| hammer wrote: |
Question I have is that, for ranks beyond 4th Dan, how should technical skill weigh in comparison to the contributions made to the art?
The impression I have had of some higher ranks is that they got promoted more because of their contributions to the school/organization than any skill improvement. Not that those people didn't have skills, it's just that their promotions didn't seem to be based on getting any better technically. |
That's why I'm so thankful, as well as fortunate, to have a Soke that made it mandatory for all ranks up to and including Hachidan to pass a very strict testing cycle. Albeit, contributions are taken in consideration for any and all Shogo title appointments, but NEVER for testing cycles!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Titanium
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Aug 2015
Posts: 259
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Styles: Wado-Kai & Shotokan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| hammer wrote: |
Question I have is that, for ranks beyond 4th Dan, how should technical skill weigh in comparison to the contributions made to the art?
The impression I have had of some higher ranks is that they got promoted more because of their contributions to the school/organization than any skill improvement. Not that those people didn't have skills, it's just that their promotions didn't seem to be based on getting any better technically. |
This is a very good question...I think that the Sensei should have to show an skill set that they are still capable of the position that they are in.
I can, on the other hand, understand why the senior ranks promote Dan grades with contributions to the art.
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“Spirit first, technique second.” – Gichin Funakoshi |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Titanium wrote: |
| hammer wrote: |
Question I have is that, for ranks beyond 4th Dan, how should technical skill weigh in comparison to the contributions made to the art?
The impression I have had of some higher ranks is that they got promoted more because of their contributions to the school/organization than any skill improvement. Not that those people didn't have skills, it's just that their promotions didn't seem to be based on getting any better technically. |
This is a very good question...I think that the Sensei should have to show an skill set that they are still capable of the position that they are in.
I can, on the other hand, understand why the senior ranks promote Dan grades with contributions to the art. |
I see no harm in promoting past 6th dan or so based on contributions to the art and the school/system. After 6th dan, they've been physically tested so many times; why should they have to prove physical ability tests yet again? To be considered a master of an art, I think you've proven your physical skills, and now only need to prove your contributions to them. Promoting and teaching legitimate high ranking karateka, teaching a very diverse body with definite measurable and non-measurable criteria, contributions to your area and society as a whole, living what you preach, and so on. These things seperate a master from the rest IMO. It's about advancing your art and the arts as a whole.
What do you honestly expect from an 80 year old man or woman physically? Just as in other ranks, does an 8th dan have to be able to beat up all 7th dans and lower? Does he/she have to punch, kick, and strike harder, faster, and more effectively than everyone below him/her?
Same goes for every rank. Every nidan shouldn't be expected to be better at everything or even anything than a shodan. Rank is a personal thing. Just because a master's physical skill and attributes decline doesn't mean they regress as a martial artist. In fact, most grow from this, learning to adapt to new challenges. So long as someone is showing growth, they should promote when appropriate; even when their physical skills are regressing due to nature taking over.
I respect the camp that believes everyone should test, regardless of age and rank. But if Gichin Funakoshi came to you at 89 (right before his death and he had no known terminal illness/disability other than being 89) and asked you to test him for 10th dan, what physical standard would you hold him to? What physical standard would have been reasonable? If he didn't meet your physical standards because he was 89 years old, would you fail him?
Karate is a life-long endeavor. |
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 883
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| hammer wrote: |
Question I have is that, for ranks beyond 4th Dan, how should technical skill weigh in comparison to the contributions made to the art?
The impression I have had of some higher ranks is that they got promoted more because of their contributions to the school/organization than any skill improvement. Not that those people didn't have skills, it's just that their promotions didn't seem to be based on getting any better technically. |
This varies alot..in our system skill has to be done along with time in grade for advancement up to, and including 7th Dan..after that it's rpetty much if you're still active and contributing to the art...administrative so to speak I guess.
We don't test in physical abilites (ie: pushups, situps,m etc) in any of our tests...it's martial arts skills and good, solid techdnique that is looked at.
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If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| Titanium wrote: |
| hammer wrote: |
Question I have is that, for ranks beyond 4th Dan, how should technical skill weigh in comparison to the contributions made to the art?
The impression I have had of some higher ranks is that they got promoted more because of their contributions to the school/organization than any skill improvement. Not that those people didn't have skills, it's just that their promotions didn't seem to be based on getting any better technically. |
This is a very good question...I think that the Sensei should have to show an skill set that they are still capable of the position that they are in.
I can, on the other hand, understand why the senior ranks promote Dan grades with contributions to the art. |
I see no harm in promoting past 6th dan or so based on contributions to the art and the school/system. After 6th dan, they've been physically tested so many times; why should they have to prove physical ability tests yet again? To be considered a master of an art, I think you've proven your physical skills, and now only need to prove your contributions to them. Promoting and teaching legitimate high ranking karateka, teaching a very diverse body with definite measurable and non-measurable criteria, contributions to your area and society as a whole, living what you preach, and so on. These things seperate a master from the rest IMO. It's about advancing your art and the arts as a whole.
What do you honestly expect from an 80 year old man or woman physically? Just as in other ranks, does an 8th dan have to be able to beat up all 7th dans and lower? Does he/she have to punch, kick, and strike harder, faster, and more effectively than everyone below him/her?
Same goes for every rank. Every nidan shouldn't be expected to be better at everything or even anything than a shodan. Rank is a personal thing. Just because a master's physical skill and attributes decline doesn't mean they regress as a martial artist. In fact, most grow from this, learning to adapt to new challenges. So long as someone is showing growth, they should promote when appropriate; even when their physical skills are regressing due to nature taking over.
I respect the camp that believes everyone should test, regardless of age and rank. But if Gichin Funakoshi came to you at 89 (right before his death and he had no known terminal illness/disability other than being 89) and asked you to test him for 10th dan, what physical standard would you hold him to? What physical standard would have been reasonable? If he didn't meet your physical standards because he was 89 years old, would you fail him?
Karate is a life-long endeavor. |
I always enjoy when you say rank is a personal thing. You have said it before and I can't tell you how much I really appreciate that statement.
Years ago I was visiting a taekwondo school, I noticed a girl with Down's syndrome on the mats putting in work, she was a belt away from black belt, it always stood out in my mind because I loved her heart and enthusiasm, from a technical standpoint of skills she was not really up to a standard that many of us would hold ourselves to potentially, but it is similar, what you say about age is also similar in the disabilities department. That is why I agree with you so strongly that rank, is a very personal thing. I think in this regard, we should appreciate how much knowledge a person has to their study and what it means to the rink, not always physical ability. To take it one step further I'm not sure if any of you have seen the karate practitioners performing Kata/hyung/forms in a wheelchair. It's all over YouTube just look into it if you haven't seen it, to me it is quite breathtaking and I can't appreciate it enough. I have seen some comments that mention how they do not appreciate it because they could never use these techniques and doing some of these forms without the kicks makes it not authentic. The heart of the warrior and the knowledge is so easily overlooked when we look at appearances and physical abilities, it's a shame .
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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on the post.
