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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2380
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
It may not seem fair after years of study but you must realize that your new Sensei doesn't know you and it takes time to assess ability, skill and knowledge and thus, if the Sensei is worth his/her salt will place you at White belt. This is true within the same organization moving from one school to another.

In the case of changing arts, your old grade means absolutely nothing. You start at the beginning like any other new student.

Tell your new Sensei about your experience. If your skill, ability and knowledge is on par with a specific grade it is possible that they will elevate you based on this. Having said this there are no guarantees.


Curiosity question, if I may...

If a student in your organization transferred to your school, letís say he moved and his previous dojo is too far away, would you make him start at white belt again? If you knew his previous sensei and trusted his judgement? What if your shinshii granted that rank, ie a nidan grantee by your shinshii transferred to your school?

If youíre all under the same organization, have the same curriculum, and know and communicate with each other, I donít see how their rank shouldnít transfer to another dojo within the organization. Iíll hopefully be testing for shodan next year under Tadashi Nakamura. If I passed then relocated to Hollywood and joined their dojo, I donít know how Iíd feel if they had me wear a white belt while they evaluated me. Granted, Iíd have nothing to hide and my abilities would speak for themselves, but Iíd also feel like if I was promoted by the Kaicho, then that shouldnít be subject to their approval. I completely understand and agree with a confirmation phone call, email, etc., it if the head guy promoted me to that rank, who are they to question it (after official confirmation of course)? If I ran a dojo and someone from within the organization transferred to my school, Iíd confirm with their teacher and honor the rank. If they werenít up to standards, Iíd address it then.

Maybe Iím misinterpreting something?
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mushybees wrote:
If I'm being honest, based on what you've said in this thread and the pinan nidan thread, returning to white belt sounds like a great opportunity.

You're training isn't for nothing just because aspects of it differ from other schools. You should have plenty of valuable experience and skill that could expedite your future grading.
It will mean you have more faith in your art going forward.


You know, you are absolutely right.

Tried to PM you with a longer version of things, but I don't have enough posts yet, so function not enabled.



Thanks for all the help, everyone.


Last edited by LastKing on Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chunmonchek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 177

Styles: Goju

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:


Let's just say, this whole process of enquiry has opened my eyes.

Thanks for all the help, everyone.


Are you in the London area? If so and want to try something different, I can recommend an instructor that runs great adult and childrens classes.

Best of luck in your journey,

Chris
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
It may not seem fair after years of study but you must realize that your new Sensei doesn't know you and it takes time to assess ability, skill and knowledge and thus, if the Sensei is worth his/her salt will place you at White belt. This is true within the same organization moving from one school to another.

In the case of changing arts, your old grade means absolutely nothing. You start at the beginning like any other new student.

Tell your new Sensei about your experience. If your skill, ability and knowledge is on par with a specific grade it is possible that they will elevate you based on this. Having said this there are no guarantees.


Curiosity question, if I may...

If a student in your organization transferred to your school, letís say he moved and his previous dojo is too far away, would you make him start at white belt again? If you knew his previous sensei and trusted his judgement? What if your shinshii granted that rank, ie a nidan grantee by your shinshii transferred to your school?

If youíre all under the same organization, have the same curriculum, and know and communicate with each other, I donít see how their rank shouldnít transfer to another dojo within the organization. Iíll hopefully be testing for shodan next year under Tadashi Nakamura. If I passed then relocated to Hollywood and joined their dojo, I donít know how Iíd feel if they had me wear a white belt while they evaluated me. Granted, Iíd have nothing to hide and my abilities would speak for themselves, but Iíd also feel like if I was promoted by the Kaicho, then that shouldnít be subject to their approval. I completely understand and agree with a confirmation phone call, email, etc., it if the head guy promoted me to that rank, who are they to question it (after official confirmation of course)? If I ran a dojo and someone from within the organization transferred to my school, Iíd confirm with their teacher and honor the rank. If they werenít up to standards, Iíd address it then.

Maybe Iím misinterpreting something?


To answer your question honestly... in our organization (pretty small only 500+) I sit on the promotion board. If they were a Yudansha I would know it so yes they would enter wearing their grade. This however is the exception rather than the rule. In most organizations the schools belong, but don't really have ties past that. Basically there is no one over seeing each school and requirements can differ from school to school. A Shodan in one school could be considered a Ikkyu in another within the same organization. This is primarily do to size and number of members and an in-ability to control every school. In these terms they would enter as a white belt.

To further complicate the issue, my organization has many, many sister arts. There are around 20 or 30 factions of Matsumura Shorin Ryu organizations. If a student from a sister art were to join (this has happened) they would enter as a white belt and be subjected to a test period before being placed according to their knowledge and skill.
To even further complicate the issue, if a student was a Mudansha in our own organization they too would enter as a white belt until such time as to assess them. The reasoning for this is the organization testing board only over see's Yudansha and Kodansha students tests. All Mudansha tests are done in the individual schools/dojo's. Yes our curriculum in theory is the same however there is no one overseeing the management of each individual school/dojo and the instructor is left to do as they see fit as they are the owners up and until the student tests for Shodan.

The reason I say this is because I've sat on the testing board for about a decade and I've seen some students come through and pass easily and others that had to return, and in some cases several times. You can pass down your requirements but it's impossible to micromanage every dojo/instructor and what they do within their own Dojo in every state and town. Although the curriculum and standards of the organization are set in stone, this doesn't mean that some instructors place the same emphasis on each grade as the collective does. Therefore a Nikyu may not be a Nikyu in every instructors eyes.

As far as wearing a white belt is concerned. I have dawned a white belt every time I have taken up a new art. I also dawn a white belt and have all of my students do the same once a year to take the ego out of the equation. My Shinshii started this and I have maintained this tradition.

Why? It teaches you that the belt around your waist means nothing. You are the grade not the belt. If in taking off the belt you feel like you've been somehow diminished you're putting to much emphasis in a piece of cloth and not enough in your own ability, skill and knowledge.

When entering a sister arts Dojo (yes in theory the same art) I dawn a white belt and have no issue doing so. I tell them what grade I am and that is enough. Time and observation tell the tail better than the cloth around my waste. As Sensei8 likes to say the proof is on the floor.

Hope this answers your question.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought just occurred to me. I would only expect the belt you come with to mean something if it's the same style. If you graduate high school here in the US, where English is the primary (and frequently only) language spoken, would you expect a college in another non-English speaking country to take you in right away? You'd probably need to relearn quite a bit before they did!

My style of TKD, for example, looks a lot like Tang Soo Do, and also has many similarities with Shotokan Karate. I'd imagine I'd have to start off at a white belt in either of those schools, but I would pick things up a lot quicker. Now if I were to try some Kung Fu, where the style looks nothing like what I've been practicing, more time would be taken.

What about Kendo, Iaido or Kobudo? Would anyone here expect their black belt from Karate or Tae Kwon Do to carry over to an art that focuses on weapons?

To me, a black belt in a martial art is precisely that.
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(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I completely agree. I wouldn't expect to take my belt with me to a different discipline. In fact, starting at white is almost an exciting thing. It's like a blank canvas.
As for differing styles within the same discipline, again, I'd expect to start again. There would be some crossover, but not enough to make a one fits all grade.


Last edited by LastKing on Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14485
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've this nagging rule...

If you've experience on the floor, and you ask me if YOUR rank will transfer, guess what I'm going to say?!?!? NO!! If you're not in the SKKA, then you're a white belt, ESPECIALLY if you ask me about your rank!! Why?? To me, to even ask me that, tells me that rank is more important than knowledge and experience. So, get to the end of the line, and train hard and train well!!



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Last edited by sensei8 on Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chunmonchek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 177

Styles: Goju

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
Yes, I completely agree. I wouldn't expect to take my belt with me to a different discipline. In fact, starting at white is almost an exciting thing. It's like a blank canvas.
As for differing styles within the same discipline, again, I'd expect to start again. There would be some crossover, but not enough to make a one fits all grade.


When I started training with my teacher, I wanted to take off my black belt and put on a white belt (I had dan rank from a different lineage of Okinawan Goju).

My teacher wouldn't let me, forcing me to "rise to the occasion"...i.e...to keep up with "his" blackbelts and convert. He did the same for at least 6 others from my old lineage and many from other Okinawan Goju lineages...some just couldn't cut it and left.

Over 35 years later and I'm still hanging in there ...
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I've this nagging rule...

If you've experience on the floor, and you ask me if YOUR rank will transfer, guess what I'm going to say?!?!? NO!! If you're not in the SKKA, then you're a white belt, ESPECIALLY if you ask me about your rank!! Why?? To me, to even ask me that, tells me that rank is more important than knowledge and experience. So, get to the end of the line, and train hard and train well!!




As I've said, I'm happy with that principle. It's just that in my club, we've been assured otherwise.


Last edited by LastKing on Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14485
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
I've this nagging rule...

If you've experience on the floor, and you ask me if YOUR rank will transfer, guess what I'm going to say?!?!? NO!! If you're not in the SKKA, then you're a white belt, ESPECIALLY if you ask me about your rank!! Why?? To me, to even ask me that, tells me that rank is more important than knowledge and experience. So, get to the end of the line, and train hard and train well!!




As I've said, I'm happy with that principle. It's just that in my club, we've been assured otherwise. I think everyone else in the club is under the illusion that when it closes, they'll be able to simply join another club, keeping their rank and practicing the exact same karate as they practice now. I imagine there's going to be quite a few unhappy people when they realize.

One will only know the possible outcome once its been decided by the CI; nothing ventured, nothing gained.



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