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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2300
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
Forgive a question from a TKD guy, but when did renshi belts become the norm for 5th Dan+ folks? I remember seeing them in catalogues in the arly 80's (Bear Brand catalogue for sure), but I never remember seeing them on higher ranked folks ( like Fumio Demura Shihan), just a well worn black belt.

Can you help me understand this? Thanks.


I think that is usually due to differences in culture between okinawa/japan and korea. Also due to the preferences of instructors themselves. Sensei Morio Higoanna only wears his normal black belt and no other
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
Forgive a question from a TKD guy, but when did renshi belts become the norm for 5th Dan+ folks? I remember seeing them in catalogues in the arly 80's (Bear Brand catalogue for sure), but I never remember seeing them on higher ranked folks ( like Fumio Demura Shihan), just a well worn black belt.

Can you help me understand this? Thanks.


I think that is usually due to differences in culture between okinawa/japan and korea. Also due to the preferences of instructors themselves. Sensei Morio Higoanna only wears his normal black belt and no other

However, they do wear their Shogo title identifiers on their black belt. Higoanna Sensei has 3 bars on his black belt to distinguish him as a Hanshi.






edit: spelling error
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Last edited by sensei8 on Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2300
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly still his usual black belt.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1876

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A short search on google confirms that the belt system used in most Okinawan dojo is an exact copy of the Judo ranks in Japan from shodan to Judan. Everything before 7th Dan is a plain black belt. "Kyoushi" ranks (7, have red/white bars and "Hanshi" ranks (9,10) solid red. Every karateka I have ever seen with the renshi belt was either from an independent dojo or a foreign branch of an Okinawan/Japanese school. All were 5th or 6th Dan.
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JR 137
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seido Juku uses several different "ceremonial" belts for upper rank yudansha. 5th dan wears a black belt with a red stripe along it (like a junior bb's white stripe), 6th dan has 2 thinner red stripes or a red belt with black stripe (the red with black has been at 6th dan longer), 7th Dan is red with 2 black stripes, 8th dan is red with a white stripe, and 9th is solid red.

Currently only one 9th dan, Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura. I've been told this is relatively new, as Nakamura wanted upper rank yudansha to be easily recognized at large gatherings. Because the organization grew as large as it did, he wanted to honor his senior-most students. These belts are only worn during formal stuff and special workouts. During day to day training and teaching, they all wear a standard black belt. Name in katakana and respective number of bars on one side, and organization kanji on the other.

Nakamura was born and raised in Japan, and stays close to his roots. To the best of my knowledge, Kyokushin (where he came from) doesn't wear anything but black.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.
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JR 137
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.


I read somewhere that Mas Oyama used red as one of kyu grades in Kyokushin, but then eliminated it out of respect for high ranking yudansha who wore it in other systems.

I remember seeing one "traditional Japanese karate" school at a tournament that used red as a kyu grade. We were sitting in the bleachers when a group of about ten 8-12 year olds walked into the gym wearing them. My Sensei at the time quietly said to us "look at all the little grandmasters." I asked one of my classmates' little brother how he felt knowing there were 10th dans in his division. We had a good laugh about it.

But now that you mention it, I don't recall ever seeing a single Japanese founder and/or head of an organization wearing anything other than a solid black belt in pictures, videos or anything else. Non-Japanese, yes. Seido Juku is the only exception I know of. We're headquartered in the US, so maybe that's got something to do with it. There are several dojos in Japan however.

At the end of the day, it's all irreverent as to who wears what. As long as the reasons are justifiable and are based on beneficial things.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what we've done ever since 2009...

http://www.karateforums.com/returning-to-the-ways-of-old-vt37058.html



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Nidan Melbourne
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Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2300
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.


I read somewhere that Mas Oyama used red as one of kyu grades in Kyokushin, but then eliminated it out of respect for high ranking yudansha who wore it in other systems.

I remember seeing one "traditional Japanese karate" school at a tournament that used red as a kyu grade. We were sitting in the bleachers when a group of about ten 8-12 year olds walked into the gym wearing them. My Sensei at the time quietly said to us "look at all the little grandmasters." I asked one of my classmates' little brother how he felt knowing there were 10th dans in his division. We had a good laugh about it.


At my old club and current club we have Red Belts as a Kyu Grade, I am not sure why and how this transpired.

My old Chief Instructor from my old club trained underneath Tino Ceberano who was a Goju-Kai Practitioner, sent to Australia by request of Gogen Yamaguchi-Sensei. So i feel like this is where it may have come from and popped up in my clubs over the years
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JR 137
Black Belt
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.


I read somewhere that Mas Oyama used red as one of kyu grades in Kyokushin, but then eliminated it out of respect for high ranking yudansha who wore it in other systems.

I remember seeing one "traditional Japanese karate" school at a tournament that used red as a kyu grade. We were sitting in the bleachers when a group of about ten 8-12 year olds walked into the gym wearing them. My Sensei at the time quietly said to us "look at all the little grandmasters." I asked one of my classmates' little brother how he felt knowing there were 10th dans in his division. We had a good laugh about it.


At my old club and current club we have Red Belts as a Kyu Grade, I am not sure why and how this transpired.

My old Chief Instructor from my old club trained underneath Tino Ceberano who was a Goju-Kai Practitioner, sent to Australia by request of Gogen Yamaguchi-Sensei. So i feel like this is where it may have come from and popped up in my clubs over the years


I'm not bashing Goju nor Yamaguchi. I've got the utmost respect for them. From everything I've seen, they do things the right way. Those students' Sensei has no affiliation with Goju Kai that I know of. He's independent and is a mish-mash of a bunch of different Japanese systems. They're 100% sport karate, doing only point fighting and kata for tournament/aesthetic value. The CI seemingly based his kata list on what scores highest. I visited his dojo a while back when I was first looking to get started. The only place I've ever seen that is 100% sport karate. I'm not saying that approach is wrong; different courses for different horses. But with that being his focus, his students weren't very successful. The only ones who placed in any category/ division were the ones who were naturally athletic.
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