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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6443
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.


I read somewhere that Mas Oyama used red as one of kyu grades in Kyokushin, but then eliminated it out of respect for high ranking yudansha who wore it in other systems.

Speculating, but would that have come from his Korean connections? Red is used in TKD and TSD for 2nd and 1st kups normally.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.


I read somewhere that Mas Oyama used red as one of kyu grades in Kyokushin, but then eliminated it out of respect for high ranking yudansha who wore it in other systems.

Speculating, but would that have come from his Korean connections? Red is used in TKD and TSD for 2nd and 1st kups normally.


Not a bad speculation, as Oyama was Korean. One of his main teachers was also Korean (not sure if that one taught Shotokan or Goju). Not that I'm an authority on Oyama, but I don't recall anything indicating he trained in TKD, TSD or any other Korean art.
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
DWx wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The belt colours for upper dan grades are generalized in Okinawan karate circles, but I don't recall seeing the red/white kyoushi belt and red Hanshi belt in mainland Japan with the ryuha originating there such as Shotokan, kyokushin and others.


I read somewhere that Mas Oyama used red as one of kyu grades in Kyokushin, but then eliminated it out of respect for high ranking yudansha who wore it in other systems.

Speculating, but would that have come from his Korean connections? Red is used in TKD and TSD for 2nd and 1st kups normally.


Not a bad speculation, as Oyama was Korean. One of his main teachers was also Korean (not sure if that one taught Shotokan or Goju). Not that I'm an authority on Oyama, but I don't recall anything indicating he trained in TKD, TSD or any other Korean art.


I concur. That might be a possible reason for the red belt in Kyokushin kyu ranks.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1876

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That reason sounds probable, but to accurately answer that question it would be necessary to first find out what time frame Kyokushin had the red belt and when exactly it was eliminated by Oyama. The karate ryuha that use it copied it from the system used in judo. In both systems it is for a ninth or tenth dan.

Coloured belts other than brown are quite recent and were never standardized. Each ryuha and instructor could decide whatever colours and order they wanted below shodan, so the answer can only be found by researching a specific style's history.
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JR 137
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Joined: 10 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poking around the internet, some Kyokushin schools still use a red kyu belt. Oyama replaced red with orange. Red/orange is 10th kyu. White belt is mukyu, or no grade. I wonder why some still use it after Oyama eliminated it. Then again, there's a ton of splintering in Kyokushin, especially after Oyama's death. I'm pretty sure he made the change well before his death in 1994.
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Lupin1
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1636
Location: Texas USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isshinryu uses red belt as 9th and 10th Dan, but I have no problem with other styles using it as a kyu/gup rank. Usually you can tell the difference just by looking at the person wearing it. A 7-year-old with a red belt is most likely not a 10th Dan.

I know it's not as as big a discrepancy, but we use purple belt as an advanced white belt for kids. Most places use purple as a high kyu rank-- up closer to brown-- but we give it to kids after a month and a half to two months of training. Different strokes...
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well with Oyama there was definitely some contact with ITF TKD and Gen. Choi. It is believed that the General tried to recruit him and get him to call his style Tae Kwon Do. (see page 84 of A Killing Art by Alex Gillis).

We talked about this some on the Korean forum a while ago.
http://www.karateforums.com/mas-oyama-the-itf-vt35134.html

In an interview in TKD Times the General said he met Oyama in 1966, how does that fit within Kyokushin's timeline?
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Montana
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7th-9th Dans wear the red/white striped belt..if they wish to, and 10th (or head of the system) wears a solid red belt.

Or..they wear black..it's their choice as far as I know.

Sensei Kuda Yuichi from Okinawa wore black when he visited us (his first time in the states) way back in 1978, and he wore black as a 7th Dan. When I had the opportunity to work with him again around 1990 or so in Seattle, he again wore black as a 9th Dan, and head of the system.

I have seen pictures of him in other US cities when he visited wearing red/white..so I don't know. I think it depends on his mood maybe? lol
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JR 137
KF Sempai
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Joined: 10 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
7th-9th Dans wear the red/white striped belt..if they wish to, and 10th (or head of the system) wears a solid red belt.

Or..they wear black..it's their choice as far as I know.

Sensei Kuda Yuichi from Okinawa wore black when he visited us (his first time in the states) way back in 1978, and he wore black as a 7th Dan. When I had the opportunity to work with him again around 1990 or so in Seattle, he again wore black as a 9th Dan, and head of the system.

I have seen pictures of him in other US cities when he visited wearing red/white..so I don't know. I think it depends on his mood maybe? lol


Perhaps it's dependent on the formality of the event. Tadashi Nakamura (founder of Seido and 9th dan) wears his solid red belt during promotional testing, lectures, large workouts, i.e. formal events. All other times, like day to day teaching and training, he wears his solid black belt.

I don't know how many others do this, but I think a lot do. I haven't seen too many beat up and frayed red nor red and white belts.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Well with Oyama there was definitely some contact with ITF TKD and Gen. Choi. It is believed that the General tried to recruit him and get him to call his style Tae Kwon Do. (see page 84 of A Killing Art by Alex Gillis).

We talked about this some on the Korean forum a while ago.
http://www.karateforums.com/mas-oyama-the-itf-vt35134.html

In an interview in TKD Times the General said he met Oyama in 1966, how does that fit within Kyokushin's timeline?


I'm getting my information from Tadashi Nakamura's autobiography...

Nakamura was the one who devised the original colored belt system in Kyokushin. Before this, there was only white, brown and black. With Oyama's blessing he introduced the order white, blue, yellow, green, brown, black. The guys who had been around for a while hated it, but they changed their minds after they saw the benefits. There was no red belt.

There was no date mentioned, but he said it was while he was teaching at Camp Zama (US military base), while the honbu was being built at the same time. The Kyokushin honbu opened in 1964, 2 years before the meeting with Gen. Choi in '66.

Not sure when red was introduced, nor when it was changed to orange. Nakamura left Kyokushin in '76. Perhaps red came in after that? There's no red nor orange belt in Seido. If it was before '76, Nakamura might have brought it to Seido. All speculation though. Nakamura kept the same kyu color order he devised when he left Kyokushin and started Seido.
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