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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2207
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at my school we want students and instructors to respect each other no matter what rank.

But we still call our chief instructor Sensei and whoever is teaching senpai (unless there are more 3rd dans and above).

What gets under my skin is when people of the same rank or the one below don't show respect to others when they are teaching.

Once we bow out to finish class and we are all getting changed (for those of us who do get changed fully) then we go off a first name basis.
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snowturtle
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 8
Location: Canada
Styles: GoJu Ryu Karatedo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very interesting topic. I agree with the previous statement, "respect is free". I do my best to respect the people in my life (karate, friends, family, work). However, like trust, it very hard to get back once it has been broken.

One of the lines in our dojo kun is "karatedo begins and ends with courtesy and respect". I believe there is more than one way to look at this statement. The first is to apply it to the martial artists. I take the view that if karate begins and ends with respect, there is no start or finish, respect must be reciprical to all ranks. However, like trust, once it has been broken it is very difficutt to earn back. IMHO, The way respect manifests itself, ie) bowing, titles, lining up in rank order, is the courtesy aspect.

For me respect also includes respect for the art and for the senseis, the ones who have gone before. Without this a dojo is a just a place to work out and hit things, like cardio kickboxing (which is absolutley fine, if that is what you are looking for.
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my dojo everyone of us bow for higher and lower rank as we all respect each other. I believe it's an important part of the art tradition that we need to maintain.
IMHO, bowing is not the sign of respect, you might bow to some one whom you don't respect ... it's just a body movement and real respect is the most important thing in the Dojo.
Lucky me I have very nice mates there all respecting and helping each other
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Karate4Life
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Aug 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Germany
Styles: Hands and Feet

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OSU!

I find it weird to be forced to show respect to someone just because of the colour of their belt. Quite contrary I believe that everyone deserves the same amount of respect as an individual, as a fellow Karateka, and as someone who's on the mat and shows honest effort. Hence, I'll bow as deeply to a white as I would do to a black belt. The militaristic respect thing that is so common especially in Japanese martial arts has always ecaped me somehow.

Sure, the instructor needs to be obeyed and should never be questioned openly, especially not during class, for this would disrupt the class, and I think this is also a matter of safety. But to show special respect to a black belt just because he is a black belt? And if they ask you to show special respect because they're black belts then they're idiots who have a personality problem. I've met some of these special specimens over the years, and such people tend to compensate inside the dojo for things that go wrong for them outside the dojo.

OSU!
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14496
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karate4Life wrote:
Sure, the instructor needs to be obeyed and should never be questioned openly, especially not during class, for this would disrupt the class, and I think this is also a matter of safety.

How can ALL students learn, if no one ever asks any questions during class. Seems to me to be the best time to ask because if one waits until after class, then others are left out of the learning experience. Do it during class, but do it respectfully! If time is consumed in this endeavor instead of drilling, etc, then so be it. The CI still has to manage the time, but the times not a beacon of what's to be covered to the letter. What's not covered in the planned class for that day, can always be addressed at another time. If a CI can't manage time and the curriculum, then that CI shouldn't be the CI. Teaching is learning and vice versa.

Imho.



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Karate4Life
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Aug 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Germany
Styles: Hands and Feet

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OSU!

sensei8 wrote:
Karate4Life wrote:
Sure, the instructor needs to be obeyed and should never be questioned openly, especially not during class, for this would disrupt the class, and I think this is also a matter of safety.

How can ALL students learn, if no one ever asks any questions during class. Seems to me to be the best time to ask because if one waits until after class, then others are left out of the learning experience. Do it during class, but do it respectfully! If time is consumed in this endeavor instead of drilling, etc, then so be it. The CI still has to manage the time, but the times not a beacon of what's to be covered to the letter. What's not covered in the planned class for that day, can always be addressed at another time. If a CI can't manage time and the curriculum, then that CI shouldn't be the CI. Teaching is learning and vice versa.

Imho.




My bad, sensei8, English is not my native language, and I think I need to clarify my post. When I wrote "do not question", I was referring to questioning in terms of "not doing what they're told", "questioning the qualification of the instructor", "doing something completely different even though the instructor made clear what needs to be done next", and the like.

Quite contrary, I encourage asking questions all the time, for without asking for the "how" and "why" we cannot improve. I would never take that away from my people. The only thing that I do not tolerate is chatter and giggling. The occasional smile and remark during kumite is OK, but only if it doesn't disrupt the flow of the class. People can ask me anything they want, and they should do so openly so that everyone can listen - for every student who asks a question, there are three more students who have the same question but do not dare to ask, so it benefits all of them.

I hope I was able to clarify my point. Without interaction but mere imitation Karate remains shallow and without depth.

OSU!
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14496
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do thank you for taking the time to clarify your post. Having read your clarifying points, I wholeheartedly concur and understand what your post was indicating.



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27847
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some styles cling to the hierarchy more than others do. If you know that going into it, then you should respect what they do, and follow along. If its something that comes along as time goes by, then I could see taking issues with it.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14496
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Some styles cling to the hierarchy more than others do. If you know that going into it, then you should respect what they do, and follow along. If its something that comes along as time goes by, then I could see taking issues with it.

Absolutely!!



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guird
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 198

Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There haven't been any disrespect problems where I'm training at the moment. If there were, I expect we'd be expected to solve it ourselves. We really are just there to learn and to have fun.
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