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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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"terminate"? Is there some reason why you have to create an impact spike rather than keeping your hands curved and rolling them too?
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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We were absolutely told to role out and use the energy to get up but in certain falls, theres no rolling. Your body is going to receive substantial impact that can do damage. Giving the energy some place to go is the only way to protect your organs.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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I always rolled shoulder to hip, as taught in Aikido.
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. Which falls?
I know that when I fall forward as if tripped, I put my hands down with my fingers facing each other, with my elbows bent at about a right angle to avoid absorbing the impact with a bone connection.
That allows me several inches of distance to decelerate with muscle resistance without connecting with any rigid structural elements, as well as makes sure that if that distance isn't enough to eat the energy, that the first points of contact will probably be the side of my thigh and the stronger parts of my ribcage, through my hand. It's a small twist away from rolling into role. It's been far more than enough for all my awkward falls so far and has no "slap". I used it tripping in the hall while running to catch a phone call just last week in fact.
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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osotogari
uchi mata
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Uchi mata looks like a basic leprechaun drill that we fall out of a form of all the time, and osotogari appears to be highly restricted all the way to the floor. Plus has to account for the elbow or shoulder strike that follows it up, which is honestly more worrying to me than the floor.
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Friend, Judo break falls are not going to be improved upon on this day.
Please make your way to a Judo school, sit in on a few classes, and see how your method works out for you. See if you discovered something that the thousands of judoka and jujutsuka haven't.
We used to practice self defense and yes, we would do a break fall and roll up into a fighting stance- thats not always applicable. I could only speak from my experience. I will tell you a FACT. There was a time i was raw, didnt really know what I was doing (far from an expert even now). Because of my short stature and wide center of gravity, when i would him throw people, I would unintentionally use too much force. I used to throw people and they would bounce off the floor a bit. I am not proud of it. My anatomy is perfectly suited to those throws. Without proper breakfalls, people would have been limping away
Watch this - lots of repeating but it illustrates my point. - watch harai goshi and yoko gake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKE7WS8N3Kw
When it comes to judo, I listen to Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo and 10th dan, Kyuzo Mifune. If you think you know better then the discussion is over for obvious reasons
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| cheesefrysamurai wrote: |
Friend, Judo break falls are not going to be improved upon on this day.
Please make your way to a Judo school, sit in on a few classes, and see how your method works out for you. See if you discovered something that the thousands of judoka and jujutsuka haven't.
We used to practice self defense and yes, we would do a break fall and roll up into a fighting stance- thats not always applicable. I could only speak from my experience. I will tell you a FACT. There was a time i was raw, didnt really know what I was doing (far from an expert even now). Because of my short stature and wide center of gravity, when i would him throw people, I would unintentionally use too much force. I used to throw people and they would bounce off the floor a bit. I am not proud of it. My anatomy is perfectly suited to those throws. Without proper breakfalls, people would have been limping away
Watch this - lots of repeating but it illustrates my point. - watch harai goshi and yoko gake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKE7WS8N3Kw
When it comes to judo, I listen to Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo and 10th dan, Kyuzo Mifune. If you think you know better then the discussion is over for obvious reasons |
While I have a background in judo, and I am definitely a proponent of learning to fall, I can't recommend our method of falling for JusticeZero. His martial art does just fine at dealing with falling, even if they go about it differently than we do--check out some videos and you will see what I mean!
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Kuma
Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| JusticeZero wrote: |
| "terminate"? Is there some reason why you have to create an impact spike rather than keeping your hands curved and rolling them too? |
By slapping with the arms you dissipate the energy of the fall by a great deal. It gives the force a way out of your body if that makes sense - I forget the actual scientific terminology but there's a reason for it. Because of this you can take serious impacts. There's many stories of Judokas falling from great heights or being thrown from cars/motorcycles and managing to pull off a slapping breakfall and walking away without serious injury.
| JusticeZero wrote: |
Hmm. Which falls?
I know that when I fall forward as if tripped, I put my hands down with my fingers facing each other, with my elbows bent at about a right angle to avoid absorbing the impact with a bone connection.
That allows me several inches of distance to decelerate with muscle resistance without connecting with any rigid structural elements, as well as makes sure that if that distance isn't enough to eat the energy, that the first points of contact will probably be the side of my thigh and the stronger parts of my ribcage, through my hand. It's a small twist away from rolling into role. It's been far more than enough for all my awkward falls so far and has no "slap". I used it tripping in the hall while running to catch a phone call just last week in fact. |
Judo has front breakfalls as well (as what you are describing sounds exactly like the third technique demonstrated on this page: http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/knowledge/ukemi/ ). Dropping right onto the ground can happen with some throws and falls, but in others with the forward momentum used you need to be able to roll safely from that throw. |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| cheesefrysamurai wrote: |
| Please make your way to a Judo school, sit in on a few classes, and see how your method works out for you. |
We have our reasons.
I know that when I started, we did the same basic thing that most teachers i've worked with did: We went out onto the parking lot in a t-shirt and jeans and started practicing breakfalling and tumbling techniques on the tarmac, and after awhile worked up to being able to take the falls from a running start.
Usually with my students it's pebble concrete sidewalks, because they don't get you as dusty, and most of the time we're fine with staying indoors on a bare hardwood floor to practice falling and sweeps and takedowns for when we do our 'sparring' circles. Laid brick works too; that's my personal favorite surface to practice breakfalls on, and it's usually what is on the ground where we meet up and compete with people from different schools, given the tastes of the parks and rec people around here. Traditionally for the past century or so it's been cobblestone streets. I've never seen so much as a carpet in a school.
I can't meaningfully brag about my lineage, since you don't know any of them, and I only know two steps back from the head of my lineage, who taught my teachers. I can't even brag about their rank, because they only adopted a cord system a few decades back to look more "legit", and saying that they have a white cord doesn't have any meaning to you. There are no higher ones. I don't really *want* to have some prestige-measuring match with someone whose art doesn't even originate on the same continent as mine does.
It isn't how I learned how to fall, and parts of the description of how this foreign art does their falls don't make much sense to me. I have to go googling for videos just to figure out what angles are even being referred to. I'm sure it makes perfect sense to people who train in their school under their methodology, which I don't. I'm not about to go saying that they obviously are doing it wrong, because it seems to work for them for what they're doing, but it would be appreciated if a similar courtesy were to remain extended to me.
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on the post.
