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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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I dont know who wrote them i read it up in a library and i didnt really think to check the author, my master is a guy name Steve Pinder, he was trained by Fusei Kise which was trained by Ho Han Sokan, the originater of Shoring Ryu (i think dont be surprised if im wrong,) so i think he would know something on the matter
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Ah, that explains a lot. Hmm...I've seen that funny picture of a sai being held by a farmer in the fields on Kise's website. I don't want to accuse them of doctoring a photo, but it looks really fake. Maybe it's just the angle or something...
I actually trained with an instructor (Kyoshi Jeff Ader) from Kise's organization and greatly enjoyed the instruction I received with him that one year.
All the same, I think it is utterly ridiculous some of them still hold on to that story. Your instructor is probably very good. But I can't buy his story about the sai...that's just a popular myth repeated over and over even by those that should know better...Even Okinawans repeat this myth. It's kind of like the stories of Minutemen snipers during the early days of the American Revolution. Sure, you had some good shooters, but a lot of them weren't that good (and some of it is the fault that their weaponry wasn't exactly state of the art when it came to accuracy). But a nice myth all the same.
Hohan Soken wasn't the founder of Shorin Ryu, although he was a great master of karate. I have quite a few video clips of him doing kata and they are nice to watch. Anyway, according to the prevailing view, he trained under Nabe Matsumura who trained under Bushi Matsumura. There is some question about the dates and exact linkages with Nabe Matsumura, but it is a generally accepted story. Bushi Sokon Matsumura was the founder of Shorin Ryu and Nabe's uncle.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Waid, i did know that Bushi Matsumura founded it...and for the sai thing, i guess its a matter of someones beliefs, and, where could i see some katas being done by Ho Han Soken?
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| Waid, i did know that Bushi Matsumura founded it...and for the sai thing, i guess its a matter of someones beliefs, and, where could i see some katas being done by Ho Han Soken? |
If you want to leave it at that, then I can not stop you. I don't believe it is, but that's okay.
I have an old vhs copy of it. I recently discovered you can order the dvd version of it online here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006LU72/102-1190679-7367347?v=glance
Only 3 left in stock, apparently. There are some other places, but they may be more expensive.
It also has some footage of Kise in his younger years, which you may enjoy. I recommend it for Shorin Ryu practitioners in general. There is a lot of what I consider to be "filler" material, such as videos of kid classes doing kata and things like that, but still worth the money.
Edit: I look on amazon and it says it is only 60 minutes long. The version I had was around two hours, if I remember correctly. Therefore there may be a lot missing (hopefully the filler?).
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y2_sub
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 1201
Styles: Officially switched to boxing , formally kyokushin karate
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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If the sword was within the hands of a real samurai then you won't stand a chance
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thats not neccisarily true, farmers used weapons and killed samurai, it all depends on whos fighting
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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Menjo
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 1786
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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right but a true samurai would be the ideal samurai right? the ideal samurai i dont think was to lose to farmers, so a true samurai is an ideal samurai according to their ways of thinking which would make a true samurai never lose to a farmer???  |
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Shorin Ryuu
Black Belt
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: Pearl City, HI
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kobudo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| Thats not neccisarily true, farmers used weapons and killed samurai, it all depends on whos fighting |
I'm sure many of those stories are myth and those that weren't, didn't happen at all that often. There were probably cases where martial artists on Okinawa defeated some Japanese, but I'm sure there were certain factors.
1. The Okinawan may have not been a simple farmer, but a bushi, guard, or constable and hence very experienced with fighting. Possibly having a weapon as well.
2. The samurai may have been drunk or simply not that good. Simply being a samurai doesn't mean you were necessarily great at fighting (especially during the Tokugawa era...).
3. Some mixture of the the above.
There does seem to be this impression that samurai walked around Okinawan causing trouble ALL THE TIME like Trogdor, only with less burnination (no, I can't believe I just wrote that). I don't think that was always necessarily the case. At any rate, a very competent karateka would still have difficulty defeating a reasonably competent swordsman.
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y2_sub
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 1201
Styles: Officially switched to boxing , formally kyokushin karate
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Shorin Ryuu wrote: |
| a very competent karateka would still have difficulty defeating a reasonably competent swordsman. |
If the very competant okinawan karateka has a weapon of any kind , then their chances are somehow equal , if that same karateka is facing a very competant samurai , I would give it to the samurai , don't forget that samurai also trained in jujutsu so the karate factor is not that important
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Patrick
KF Administrator
Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 28758
Location: Los Angeles, California
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on the post.
