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aurik
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 494
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu
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 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I thought I'd get this started, so....ahem....HERE BEGINS THE DISSERTATION OF THE WAY OF SANCHIN KATA BY KRIS WILDER.
Something that jumped out at me on pg xii of the foreword by Hiroo Ito:
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| A physique strengthened from karate is not created only from muscle strength, but from a flexible muscle tone. It is not possible to perform strong karate without this characteristic. A body strengthened with bodybuilding will have an adverse effect. There are no historical documents describing weightlifting among samurai soldiers. Bodies with hard muscles will slow the karate movements of the body (emphasis are mine). |
When I see statements like this, I almost immediately take issue with it. There are a few points I have problems with here. First off, is the use of the term "bodybuilding." Bodybuilding became a term to describe anyone that chose to pursue the increase of strength through lifting weights; it became a catchall term for many who didn't understand the concept of what they were describing.
Secondly, this feeds into the idea that being strong is detrimental to the Martial Artists in general, and Karatekas specifically. I think it is irresponsible and dangerous advise to give anyone to avoid seeking out strength training as a way for people to improve their interaction with the physical world...because it is a physical world. Based on what I've seen as an instructor and martial artist in general, there is no indication that being strong is detrimental to martial arts performance; in fact, like any other physical activity, being strong is beneficial. A very strong man can learn to perform with the same mechanical efficiency as a weak man.
The third issue I have is with the idea that there is no historical information that indicates that samurai lifted any kinds of weights. So what? I'll bet they didn't drive cars either....because they weren't there. This statement is not an indication that strength training would not have been beneficial to the samurai.
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I have a number of (different) issues with this as well. First of all, Sanchin was not introduced to Japan until well after the Meiji Restoration (aka the end of the samurai class). Kanbun Uechi first opened a dojo in Wakayama province in 1924, and shortly thereafter Gichi Funakoshi opened the dojo that would be known as Shotokan in 1930. Comparing the studies of Sanchin to the Samurai has no bearing here.
Second of all, traditional Okinawan masters DID use weight training to get stronger. They frequently used Nigiri Game (clay jars which could be filled with sand or water) to increase forearm, grip, and upper body strength in Sanchin. Likewise they used chi ishi (stone mallets) to provide weight training as well. Look at some of the master instructors like Shinyu Gushi that would train sanchin with clay jars.
Lastly, strength training and bodybuilding do not necessarily reduce flexibility or speed. Intelligent strength training can in fact enhance both of those. Selecting the right weight for the right number of reps, and focusing on an explosive eccentric motion can certainly help develop speed and power. The reason that you hear about bodybuilders losing flexibility is because too many will focus on, say, the chest, (front) shoulders, and biceps and ignore the lats, rear shoulders, and triceps. When I was powerlifting, I followed the mantra of "every push should have an equal and matching pull". If I did X sets of heavy bench presses, I'd do X sets of heavy rows to keep the muscle groups balanced. Likewise, I was sure to warmup before every session and stretch as a part of my cooldown afterwards.
_________________
My Journey (So Far)
Shuri-Ryu 1996-1997 - Gokyu
Judo 1996-1997 - Yonkyu
Uechi-Ryu 2018-Present - Nidan
ABS Bladesmith 2021-Present - Apprentice
Last edited by aurik on Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2277
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:31 am Post subject: |
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You make great points here, aurik. The legacy of hojo undo and the strengthening of the body outside of martial practice goes very deep. In part, the introduction puts me off in no small way because it starts off with so much misinformation.
It frustrates me as a writer, as well. I write fiction, and even then I do so much research to make sure that what I am making up is faithful to the history of the genre or world. It really seems like this guy just came in with a bunch of preconceived notions and a lot of audacity and went ham.
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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aurik
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 494
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
I have 2 issues here. The first is that I don't believe that Sanchin is a kata that is good for self defense. I think that it is a kata that is good for meditation. I also think that it is a kata that enhances the understanding of your other kata. My kata practice exploded when I learned Sanchin because it fundamentally changed the way that I approached kata itself. Perhaps I am misunderstanding Wilder's point here, and we agree with one another. I would certainly have liked him to elaborate on this point, over others.
The second is that, philosophically speaking, I'm not sure that I'm on board with the idea that Sanchin moves slowly for the purposes of education. It definitely helps for the educational purposes of learning Sanchin. It makes it hard to make mistakes. However, I think the dynamic tension of Sanchin teaches its own lesson. It requires you to be in the moment. It requires that you focus only on what you are doing now. In that, it also teaches you to do the same with other kata. Too often, I find myself not being in the moment with other kata, and instead thinking towards what's next. One of the reasons that I train kata so repeatedly, especially now, is to achieve that state of Mushin during the performance. It's so that I can just be in the kata as it happens instead of thinking ahead. That, in my view, is the educational purpose of Sanchin. It's about achieving Mushin/Zen and working more in the moment. |
I think of the relationship between Sanchin and (other) kata similar to the relationship between your kihons and yakisoku kimite or sparring. Sanchin teaches us the fundamentals and forces us to work on those fundamentals. In our Sanchin, we practice the shallow, circular breathing you'd want to use in an actual sparring session or fight, which keeps you from getting the wind knocked out of you. By practicing our strikes, stepping, posture, and balance deliberately in Sanchin, those motions become second nature when we practice other kata, kumite drills, or sparring. In Uechi-Ryu, all of our stances, kimae, and even sparring postures are derived from Sanchin. For example, our neko-dachi is formed by starting in Sanchin, bending the rear foot and lifting the front (maintaining the "tilt"). When we spar, we are taught to keep the hands in a position that roughly approximates Sanchin. This is why we practice Sanchin separate from our other kata.
_________________
My Journey (So Far)
Shuri-Ryu 1996-1997 - Gokyu
Judo 1996-1997 - Yonkyu
Uechi-Ryu 2018-Present - Nidan
ABS Bladesmith 2021-Present - Apprentice |
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2277
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| aurik wrote: |
| I think of the relationship between Sanchin and (other) kata similar to the relationship between your kihons and yakisoku kimite or sparring. Sanchin teaches us the fundamentals and forces us to work on those fundamentals. In our Sanchin, we practice the shallow, circular breathing you'd want to use in an actual sparring session or fight, which keeps you from getting the wind knocked out of you. By practicing our strikes, stepping, posture, and balance deliberately in Sanchin, those motions become second nature when we practice other kata, kumite drills, or sparring. In Uechi-Ryu, all of our stances, kimae, and even sparring postures are derived from Sanchin. For example, our neko-dachi is formed by starting in Sanchin, bending the rear foot and lifting the front (maintaining the "tilt"). When we spar, we are taught to keep the hands in a position that roughly approximates Sanchin. This is why we practice Sanchin separate from our other kata. |
I agree here, and I love the insight into Uechi, which focuses Sanchin throughout its curriculum.
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think that approach of Uechi-Ryu is similar to how I see it. It is less a kata that requires a breakdown of bunkai, and more one that supports and informs the breadth of what it is that karate is for you. It takes the forefront of practice. I know that Uechi has a saying that everything is Sanchin (or comes back to Sanchin). In this, it makes sense that the practice of Sanchin is separate. It requires a different kind of study that other kata do not.
Do I have this right? Or am I misinterpreting something here?
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
https://www.instagram.com/nordic_karate/ |
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aurik
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 494
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
I agree here, and I love the insight into Uechi, which focuses Sanchin throughout its curriculum.
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think that approach of Uechi-Ryu is similar to how I see it. It is less a kata that requires a breakdown of bunkai, and more one that supports and informs the breadth of what it is that karate is for you. It takes the forefront of practice. I know that Uechi has a saying that everything is Sanchin (or comes back to Sanchin). In this, it makes sense that the practice of Sanchin is separate. It requires a different kind of study that other kata do not.
Do I have this right? Or am I misinterpreting something here? |
I'd say you're pretty close. We don't perform bunkai for Sanchin -- the understanding of Sanchin is evaluated very differently. From time to time the instructor will test the student's understanding of Sanchin by trying to unbalance the student. This usually starts with looking at the student and offering critique on their stance and their form. At higher ranks, an instructor may push or pull on the student to try to unbalance them. At brown belt ranks and above, the instructor will strike the student in different locations to evaluate how well they are resisting change and using tension to protect themselves. In the advanced/black belt classes, we usually perform sanchin individually or in pairs with an instructor watching and evaluating.
_________________
My Journey (So Far)
Shuri-Ryu 1996-1997 - Gokyu
Judo 1996-1997 - Yonkyu
Uechi-Ryu 2018-Present - Nidan
ABS Bladesmith 2021-Present - Apprentice |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30183
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| I'm not a huge meditation person either, but doing a meditation through movement really connects with me. Maybe it's the ADHD, but I just can't stay still for long enough to meditate in what we think of as the traditional way. However, applying focus and centering myself through movements practiced 1000+ times is really helpful, especially when I am having bad days. |
This is more along the lines I was thinking. I think you and I are on the same page here; you did a very good job articulating this.
| Quote: |
| I was recently at a dojo that largely practices Korean karate (the base of their system is Korean, but they also mix in Japanese influences and kata) and they had the same issue as you are having with the steps. I come from an Okinawan system, where the steps are shallower, so it was a little easier for me to get in line with the steps. That said, Sanchin Dachi is even a little shallower than what I was used to so it took some time to get into that rhythm. |
It's going to take some time, for sure. Would you say it's more like a natural step forward in length, or just a bit longer?
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30183
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| aurik wrote: |
| ...traditional Okinawan masters DID use weight training to get stronger. They frequently used Nigiri Game (clay jars which could be filled with sand or water) to increase forearm, grip, and upper body strength in Sanchin. Likewise they used chi ishi (stone mallets) to provide weight training as well. Look at some of the master instructors like Shinyu Gushi that would train sanchin with clay jars. |
Yes, I've seen these things before, and in the book, he even demonstrates going through Sanchin with chishi. I see this as an issue of holding onto the past for way too long, and not embracing more modern ideas. For example, I think something similar could be achieved using dumbbells instead of trying to make old stone mallets.
Another issue I have altogether is that too many people try to make their strength training look like their sport/activity, in order to make it more "functional." The problem with this approach is that it completely fails to understand what strength training is. Strength training is a general physical adaptation. Lots of people like to think they can get "baseball strong" or "football strong" or "karate strong" by trying to make their "strength" training look like the moves they do in their sport/activity, when they would be better off training for overall strength the right way, using good programming and progressive overload to make the entire body strong, which will then transition into athletic performance. Hence, like I mentioned earlier, no taking strength training advise from Martial Arts instructors.
Ok, rant over.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2277
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I would say that it is more like a natural step forward, if a little smaller.
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
https://www.instagram.com/nordic_karate/ |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16417
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:35 am Post subject: |
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No matter what, breathing is vital, and Sanchin develops correct breathing techniques as well as proper pinpoint kime. While to an outsider, Sanchin is a bit peculiar, to any given MAist, Sanchin is vital across the board.
I don't believe that it's a waste of time.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30183
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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When I was in class the last Monday night, I tried applying that stepping concept outlined in the book, about pulling with the lead foot when initiating the step forward with the rear foot. I really noticed a difference.
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on the post.
