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hammer
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 361

Styles: Kyokushin, TKD

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: School Splits and Loyalty Reply with quote

As I'm guessing can happen in schools, we had a falling out between the head master and a few senior BBs around a year ago. Those BBs subsequently started up their own school and all indications are that it's working out well for them. There were a few BBs and students who left to go to the new school.

I have known the BBs running the new school since I have been taking MA classes (close to 14 years now) and consider them and others who left to be friends. I don't know all of the details of the split and I don't ask, I just wish them well.

In the new school, one of the BBs who has many years experience was recently promoted to Master. I decided to attend his promotion ceremony as a friend of his but I made sure not to wear my Gi. Unfortunately, another BB from the club I go to did attend in their Gi and when the head master found out (through Facebook postings) this person was kicked out of the club. I'm in a "don't ask don't tell" mode at this point but I feel my status at the club is potentially in jeopardy.

At this point I'm still loyal to my club but I am concerned about the head master's interpretation of club loyalty. It's not like any of us who attended the ceremony went to work out with the other school, we all went as a friend of the person being promoted.

Any thoughts? I actually hate this situation, I just want to go and work out...
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First thing is first, I understand where the head master is coming from. He's upset and sees it as an afront for the other student to do what he did. That being said, it drives me a little crazy when things like this happen. As a (former) instructor I loved loyal students but I did not feel then need to put any thoughts of loyalty in my students. I was there to teach and they were there to learn. I find it ridiculous that some instructors can't separate a student's personal life, such as the student who got kicked out, from loyalty to this or that club. For me, I would leave (possibly for your friend's school if you want to continue with the style) because it doesn't seem like a healthy place to be. I absolutely understand if you are conflicted about leaving because you've been here awhile and you obviously love the club enough to have legitimate concerns about it but you deserve to train in a place that you feel comfortable in.
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrrg... Politics...

Your situation precisely describes why arts, training, students, etc suffer... When my CI and I left his instructor's organization several years ago, we made the decision then to keep any friendships intact. When any of our students or theirs goes/comes to visit, we never hold it against anyone. Our beef with my CI's first organization shouldn't interfere with the transmission of our MA.

In your situation, since your CI has expressed hostility towards any student that partakes of the splinter organization, you may want to look for an exit. You don't necessarily have to leave when you find said exit, just have one available. Don't be trapped into something, it won't bode well for any party involved.

Lastly, don't worry what anyone from either of the organizations may say in regards to any decision you make. If you do leave your current dojo for the splinter one, don't let anyone from your current dojo bring you down. Your decision should be based upon the betterment of your MA journey, not for the ego/feelings of an instructor.


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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2431
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My suggestion is a bitter pill to swallow, I'm afraid--you should go talk to your instructor and explain how you feel. This will have one of three effects:

* He realizes how oversensitive he has been, and tones down his outrage, making it possible for students to peacefully engage with both schools.

* He doesn't care about how you feel, and things stay the same.

* He gets offended that you would feel that way, and kicks you out, too, or finds ways to make training unpleasant so you will quit.

Out of those three options, I see only one that justifies staying where you are. Still, that's better than your current situation, because as it stands you are sitting at Option 2, and don't have any other options.
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Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage, Jeff Allred
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My Blog: www.karateobsession.com
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14401
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's now 2013, and not 1600 Japan. Do what you want to do, and if the CI can't deal with it, then that's the CI's problem. You're the student, and not the property of your CI or the governing body.

When I was a JBB, I wanted to take some TKD under GM Young Ik Suh, but, the culture back then was that one had to get permission from ones instructor before one could join another school. What made it worse is that I wanted to take TKD, and not another Okinawan school.

My Soke denied me my request. My Dai-Soke was not pleased with my request either, but, after some short time, my Dai-Soke convinced my Soke into allowing me to do so. I trained in TKD for one full year.

That was then, of so I thought it was. Tread lightly, but not so much that you surrender your freedom to decide for yourself. Usually, but not always, instructors that are like your CI in this situation are this way because they've no confidence in what they're teaching, and in that, they don't want to lose any students to the competition.

I've even had a BB student of one of my competitors tell me that I couldn't have my dojo where it was because I didn't get his blessing and permission to do so. Well, I was there first, and besides, even if it was some unwritten MA rule, I wouldn't have cared because this is the modern world, and in that, I can do whatever I want to do.

I hope all goes well for you!!



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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I've even had a BB student of one of my competitors tell me that I couldn't have my dojo where it was because I didn't get his blessing and permission to do so. Well, I was there first, and besides, even if it was some unwritten MA rule, I wouldn't have cared because this is the modern world, and in that, I can do whatever I want to do.


Wow, that's crazy. I get wanting to be on the corner of the market but that's a little territorial. Besides, competition can breed better growth and better teaching (on the other hand it can create people who hand out black belts so that they can have students).
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2202
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I've even had a BB student of one of my competitors tell me that I couldn't have my dojo where it was because I didn't get his blessing and permission to do so. Well, I was there first, and besides, even if it was some unwritten MA rule, I wouldn't have cared because this is the modern world, and in that, I can do whatever I want to do.

I hope all goes well for you!!




Thats interesting! cause around the corner from my dojo there is another karate school and they have never had any issues with us (well yet at least).

The main reason why we haven't had any issues with them was that we all shared the love for karate and martial arts.

Both schools are Goju-Ryu Karate also.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14401
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
I've even had a BB student of one of my competitors tell me that I couldn't have my dojo where it was because I didn't get his blessing and permission to do so. Well, I was there first, and besides, even if it was some unwritten MA rule, I wouldn't have cared because this is the modern world, and in that, I can do whatever I want to do.


Wow, that's crazy. I get wanting to be on the corner of the market but that's a little territorial. Besides, competition can breed better growth and better teaching (on the other hand it can create people who hand out black belts so that they can have students).

It was just like that when I first started in the MA back in 1964. Territorial rights existed, at least they did in the San Fernando Valley in California. Distance between schools had to be respected and if one wanted to open a dojo within an existing territory, permission had to be given. However, this unwritten rule wasn't always obeyed.

My Soke opened up the Shindokan Hombu in Canoga Park, CA, and in that, he was visited by the owner of a Shotokan Sensei, and told my Soke that he couldn't be there because the aforementioned sensei said that he was there first. Well, my Soke just laughed at him and asked him to join us. With that, that Sensei raised his voice, and Soke told him to leave until he could show some better manners.

I can only think that this happens because said school of the MA is afraid that they'll lose students. In that, I believe that if their karate-do is solid, then they've nothing to be concerned about. Let your karate-do speak for itself; proof is on the floor...ALWAYS, imho!!


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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14401
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
I've even had a BB student of one of my competitors tell me that I couldn't have my dojo where it was because I didn't get his blessing and permission to do so. Well, I was there first, and besides, even if it was some unwritten MA rule, I wouldn't have cared because this is the modern world, and in that, I can do whatever I want to do.

I hope all goes well for you!!




Thats interesting! cause around the corner from my dojo there is another karate school and they have never had any issues with us (well yet at least).

The main reason why we haven't had any issues with them was that we all shared the love for karate and martial arts.

Both schools are Goju-Ryu Karate also.

No issues because the two of you have solid karate-do, and you both allow the floor to speak for itself.

I can see a landlord who owns a strip mall, for example, not allowing another school of the MA rent from him/her because a proprietary agreement might already exist between landlord and existing renters. However, across the street, under a different landlord, well, bring it on and allow the floor to speak for itself.
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Lupin1
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1603
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
It was just like that when I first started in the MA back in 1964. Territorial rights existed, at least they did in the San Fernando Valley in California. Distance between schools had to be respected and if one wanted to open a dojo within an existing territory, permission had to be given. However, this unwritten rule wasn't always obeyed.

My Soke opened up the Shindokan Hombu in Canoga Park, CA, and in that, he was visited by the owner of a Shotokan Sensei, and told my Soke that he couldn't be there because the aforementioned sensei said that he was there first. Well, my Soke just laughed at him and asked him to join us. With that, that Sensei raised his voice, and Soke told him to leave until he could show some better manners.

I can only think that this happens because said school of the MA is afraid that they'll lose students. In that, I believe that if their karate-do is solid, then they've nothing to be concerned about. Let your karate-do speak for itself; proof is on the floor...ALWAYS, imho!!



See, that to me just sounds silly. Could you imagine the owner of a grocery store or a gas station going into a newly opened competitor and telling the owner they couldn't operate their business there because it was "their" territory? They'd be laughed at. Business competition is to be expected and is healthy for the marketplace. It's what keeps prices reasonable and quality high. I can't see how it would be different in the martial arts business.
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