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The Pred
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385
Styles: Goju Ryu
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 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: Schools with multiple locations |
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Hi,
So I know some people on here are part of schools with multiple locations. Now does your hombu have rules on how far schools have to be away from each other. I mean I'm sure if the hombu was on let's say main street. Then a satellite school couldn't literately be across. |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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My old club we had multiple locations; the closest dojo to our Hombu was around 10 km away whereas the furthest away was 27 km away.
I feel like having a Hombu dojo and its other dojo's should be within' a reasonable drive for all its students for gradings if required there. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Originally, our Hombu had tried to enforce a 25 mile radius out and away from the Hombu. HOWEVER, and in quite a short time after our Soke ruled, one of his Sandan students, who was also a LEO with the Los Angeles Police Department at the time, brought something of interest to our Soke...
The furthest distance from East to West are approximately 25 miles!
The furthest distance from the North to South are approximately 12 miles!
Seeing that the Hombu was, at that time, located in Canoga Park, CA, in the West of the San Fernando Valley, with Burbank, CA in the East of same said Valley, and they being 25 miles apart from each other, and in no small measure that the Valley is only 12 distance from the North to the South...
...that would mean that only 1 dojo would be allowed to exist, unless one located outside of the San Fernando Valley, then that wouldn't violate Soke's so-called imaginary radius. Soke wasn't against, nor did he care one way or another, networked dojo's being out of the Valley.
However, Soke wanted more than 1 networked dojo in the Valley.
So, what did Soke do?
He changed his radius requirements and decided that it would be ok to allow for one networked dojo to be located in each of the cities that made up the Valley, which would be a whopping 22, at that time. Nowadays, the Valley consists of 44 cities in its 260 square miles.
In conclusion, a networked dojo of the SKKA can open next door to each other without any Hombu concerns; the more the merry. It's not fair, nor is it right to enforce what another person does, especially in a free and fair market. Ethical things might speak against things like this, but can't be enforced today. Sure, landlords won't rent to two Shindokan dojo's in the same strip-mall, nor that close to another for the fear of having to lose a tenant.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Originally, our Hombu had tried to enforce a 25 mile radius out and away from the Hombu. HOWEVER, and in quite a short time after our Soke ruled, one of his Sandan students, who was also a LEO with the Los Angeles Police Department at the time, brought something of interest to our Soke...
The furthest distance from East to West are approximately 25 miles!
The furthest distance from the North to South are approximately 12 miles!
Seeing that the Hombu was, at that time, located in Canoga Park, CA, in the West of the San Fernando Valley, with Burbank, CA in the East of same said Valley, and they being 25 miles apart from each other, and in no small measure that the Valley is only 12 distance from the North to the South...
...that would mean that only 1 dojo would be allowed to exist, unless one located outside of the San Fernando Valley, then that wouldn't violate Soke's so-called imaginary radius. Soke wasn't against, nor did he care one way or another, networked dojo's being out of the Valley.
However, Soke wanted more than 1 networked dojo in the Valley.
So, what did Soke do?
He changed his radius requirements and decided that it would be ok to allow for one networked dojo to be located in each of the cities that made up the Valley, which would be a whopping 22, at that time. Nowadays, the Valley consists of 44 cities in its 260 square miles.
In conclusion, a networked dojo of the SKKA can open next door to each other without any Hombu concerns; the more the merry. It's not fair, nor is it right to enforce what another person does, especially in a free and fair market. Ethical things might speak against things like this, but can't be enforced today. Sure, landlords won't rent to two Shindokan dojo's in the same strip-mall, nor that close to another for the fear of having to lose a tenant.
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I agree with what you're saying, however...
The honbu should have a say in how close dojos can be to each other. Forget free enterprise/free market, etc. My CI has a dojo. Should I be able to open up my own Seido dojo a block away? That creates competition within the organization. Does it help the organization in any way if I leave my teacher, open my own Seido dojo a block down the road, and take a bunch of his students with me? Does it benefit the organization to have in-fighting within the organization? Chances are pretty good that both will fight each other and both leave.
An organization has no right to say who can and can't open their own dojo wherever they want. But they most certainly have the right to say who can and can't use their name. In my above scenario, I'm quite sure our Kaicho wouldn't allow the Seido name to be used. It would have to be JR-Do-Te, not JR's Seido Karate.
Just as in who's allowed to open up a dojo under the Seido name, I'm quite sure there's no set in stone rules as to how far apart they must be. Who's allowed to teach depends on the potential dojo owner and the circumstances. I'd imagine they've got to be far enough away where they aren't directly targeting the same group of potential students. Some places, that could be a few blocks (like NYC), other places, that could be 30 miles (maybe Wyoming? There aren't Seido dojos in Wyoming though).
Last edited by JR 137 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Pred
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385
Styles: Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting, thanks for the feedback.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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JR 137 wrote:
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| The honbu should have a say in how close dojos can be to each other. Forget free enterprise/free market, etc. My CI has a dojo. Should I be able to open up my own Seido dojo a block away? That creates competition within the organization. Does it help the organization in any way if I leave my teacher, open my own Seido dojo a block down the road, and take a bunch of his students with me? Does it benefit the organization to have in-fighting within the organization? Chances are pretty good that both will fight each other and both leave. |
While there are 44 cities within the 260 square miles of the San Fernando Valley, and that would allow 44 separate Shindokan networked dojo's, there's not 44 approved Shindokan dojo's within the San Fernando Valley. There are dojo's outside of the San Fernando Valley, it's just that the San Fernando Valley is where the Hombu started, and it's where one approved networked Shindokan dojo after another started.
However, if there were that many, that would be ok too, per our Soke. The attempt, as well as the message, was soundly taken. For example, the center of Van Nuys, CA to the center of North Hollywood, CA is approximately 4 miles, or 12 minutes of traveling time. Van Nuys, CA to Burbank, CA is approximately 11 miles, or 25 minutes of traveling time. Van Nuys, CA, the very center of the Valley, to Canoga Park, CA is 14 miles, or 25 minutes of traveling time. Sherman Oaks, CA to Sylmar, CA is 14 miles, or 22 minutes of traveling time. In closing, Van Nuys, CA to Reseda, CA is 6 miles, or 17 minutes of traveling time.
Some cities are right next door to each others, where others are several cities away from others!!
Here's where Soke decided..."There's no competition between Shindokan dojo's, and this includes the Hombu!!" There's absolutely no competition between an approved networked Shindokan dojo and the Hombu. We're one big happy family; we feed of each other and we appreciate one another and we help one another.
How so??
The more the merry!! The more consumers know about a business the better. How better to know about, and peak interest, about Shindokan is to be aware of their existence. The time was then, and is still that way, even though the internet is available to the masses, we're still without that technology, in which, we're quite fine with.
Seeing that the CI for said Shindokan dojo decides the location(s), the Hombu/SKKA could care less if one opened their doors next door or across the street based on the mindset that there's no competition between Shindokan dojo's and/or the Hombu! No, no Shindokan dojo is next door or across the street from each other or the Hombu!! We're not wired that way, and we're not that weird!!
Our only competition is with styles of the MA that aren't Shindokan. The San Fernando Valley is a virtual petri dish of the MA; there's more styles of the MA than one can shake a stick at. After all, the Valley, is again, 260 square miles.
The SKKA manages the brand completely, this is to be for sure!! No networked Shindokan dojo can fly the Shindokan banner without the explicit authorization and/or approval of the SKKA, in which, the SKKA has denied more applications than its every approved in its history. A CI can open a dojo to teach Shindokan without the explicit permission of the SKKA, that's anyone's right to do so, but they'd not have the blessing of the SKKA, and they'd not be able to use the Shindokan Shield in any shape, way, and/or form. In short, that dojo would be on their own to fend for themselves with no port and no compass; they'd be Ronin, so to speak, without the umbrella protection of the SKKA.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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It would not make much sense to open a Dojo across the street from your Hombu or even another Dojo. For one it splits the amount of students and two it puts two instructors under the same organization in direct competition with each other.
My personal opinion is not less than 10 miles or at the very least in different towns.
There would be only one reason I could think of for opening a dojo across the street from your Hombu, and that would be if the Hombu was more of an office/headquarters and the Dojo across the street was used for testing, teaching, etc.
Other than that why would you do it? |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
It would not make much sense to open a Dojo across the street from your Hombu or even another Dojo. For one it splits the amount of students and two it puts two instructors under the same organization in direct competition with each other.
My personal opinion is not less than 10 miles or at the very least in different towns.
There would be only one reason I could think of for opening a dojo across the street from your Hombu, and that would be if the Hombu was more of an office/headquarters and the Dojo across the street was used for testing, teaching, etc.
Other than that why would you do it? |
The distance depends on the town. In NYC, several blocks makes all the difference as to who'll walk in. 5 blocks away can mean different subway lines, bringing entirely different people. Most people I know that live in NYC stick to a 3 block radius of certain subway stops. It's actually comical how they live in the biggest city in the world, yet they rarely leave a few block radius. They've got their work stop, their home stop, and maybe one or two more. Then again, everything they need is pretty much always within a few blocks anyway.
I'm sure other big cities are similar. In LA, I'm sure a few miles makes all the difference in the world due to their freeway nightmare system.
But I agree with what you're saying. My examples are exceptions, not the norm. In a perfect world, having affiliated dojos in close proximity wouldn't be a problem. We don't live in anything close to a perfect world.
Our honbu reportedly had a problem with people from neighboring dojos within the organization coming in. Our honbu is near the Flatiron building in Manhattan, hence the high overhead cost of rent and therefore high tuition. Apparently it was significantly cheaper to join a dojo run out of one of the NYC YMCAs, so a few students signed up there, trained there once every other week, and went to the honbu several times a week. Once people figured out what those few students were doing, the policy changed pretty quick. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Again, there's no competition between Shindokan dojo's, and this INCLUDES the Hombu.
My very first dojo was 5 miles, 16 traveling minutes, away from our Hombu, on the same east to west street; Sherman Way. No, that's not across the street, but the proximity might seem to close for others, whereas others might think that the distance between the two are just right. Soke enjoyed that some of his networked dojo's were bunched together because it made traveling to them more agreeable for him. The congesting of travel that is the Valley, can be more than a leisure Sunday drive.
Ours, I suppose, is not a 2D mindset, but more of a 3D mindset as to how Soke framed his thinking on this subject.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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The Pred
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385
Styles: Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Again, there's no competition between Shindokan dojo's, and this INCLUDES the Hombu.
My very first dojo was 5 miles, 16 traveling minutes, away from our Hombu, on the same east to west street; Sherman Way. No, that's not across the street, but the proximity might seem to close for others, whereas others might think that the distance between the two are just right. Soke enjoyed that some of his networked dojo's were bunched together because it made traveling to them more agreeable for him. The congesting of travel that is the Valley, can be more than a leisure Sunday drive.
Ours, I suppose, is not a 2D mindset, but more of a 3D mindset as to how Soke framed his thinking on this subject.
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I think that's a great distance. While 5 miles may seem like a short distance, it's the time itself that makes all the difference for some. |
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on the post.
