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KyoSa Twigs
White Belt
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 22
Location: New York, USA
Styles: Tang Soo Do
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 Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: Self-defense and the law |
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I have been wondering about this for some time, and have asked a couple of people, but never really got the same answers from them. Does anyone know where I could learn about this, either a section in a law book or somewhere online? Specifically:
-if I am in a fight, and defending myself or another, what criminal charges can be brought against me, i.e. assault or some such?
-the person I am defending myself from, can he sue me or file other civil actions against me? Could I sue him?
I think this is important for all martial artists to know, so if anyone can help me with this, that would be helping everyone out. Thanks. |
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joesteph
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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As a quick reply, if you go beyond the level of violence needed to handle the situation, you could be arrested for assault and even sued by him for his deemed-unnecessary injuries.
I'm sure you can sue him under certain circumstances, but it would likely be a personal injury lawyer who would handle such a case, unless it's strictly property you're referring to.
_________________
~ Joe
Vee Arnis Jitsu/JuJitsu |
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blackxpress
Yellow Belt
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Carlisle, OH
Styles: Kyokushin, Goshin-do
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| There are just too many variables to answer this question. The answer varies, for example, depending on the jurisdiction. Reasonable force in New York City may not be the same thing as it is in, say, Berea Kentucky or London England. I think, generally speaking, if you keep thrashing the guy after he's no longer a threat, stomping him in the head after he's unconscious and so forth, you'll be in a heap of trouble. The point I always make when this discussion comes up is that if I'm being attacked the legal ramifications are the last thing on my mind. I think once the adrenalin starts pumping rational thought goes out the window and muscle memory kicks in. Hopefully, once the threat is passed you'll have the presence of mind to stop fighting. Hopefully. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Enforcement can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, this is true. What's usually more important is reasonable. This is fairly universal as long as you're not doing anything beyond defending yourself then you should be fine.
I see a lot of people get worked up over this. I can say that I've never seen anyone get jammed up over ACTUALLY defending themselves. Now, by pursuing conflict after you've removed yourself from a threat, yes, then you can get in trouble.
The bottom line, without going into legal jargon, is if you JUST defend yourself, like anyone else would to a level that makes sense, you'll be fine.
Can you be civilly sued? Count on it. Can you counter sue. Sure. This is almost a given. Usually, civil courts tend to look at what was done on the criminal side of things and work off that ruling. Usually. So if you're cleared criminally then the likelihood of you being jammed up civilly decreases greatly. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| -if I am in a fight, and defending myself or another, what criminal charges can be brought against me, i.e. assault or some such? |
In most states, an assault/battery is committed when one person tries to or does physically strike another, or acts in a threatening manner to put another in fear of immediate harm. In a self-defense situation, this could mean YOU!
Many states declare that a more serious or aggravated assault/battery occurs when one tries to or does cause severe injury to another, or causes injury through use of a deadly weapon. The law treats the threat of physical injury as "assault", and the completed act of physical contact or offensive touching as battery, but many states no longer differentiate between the two. Again, in a self-defense situation, this could mean YOU!
We've, us members here at KF, discussed this very thing many times. We, martial artists, have to be aware of the very possibility that might arise from one's own actions, no matter who we're defending. Proving self-defense is made ease only when one has a witness or two. No witness, it'll be your word against the attacker(s) word. Not easy when there's nothing but heresay and conjecture as your only proof.
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| -the person I am defending myself from, can he sue me or file other civil actions against me? Could I sue him? |
Oh yeah! I/You can sue anyone for anything! Proving the facts in a court of law are difficult because the burden of the proof is with you/me, not with the criminal(s). This happens all of the time! Just how many times has one read a report(s) of a criminal(s) suing the victim for injuries the criminal(s) sustained in the commission of a crime? Or... How about the burglar who sues the store owner because the criminal fell when trying to break-in through the roof...and wins because the store owner had failed to provide enough adequate protection?
It's a catch-22 no matter...darn if we do and darn if we don't! My dad told me once, "If you shoot the attacker, make sure that you drag him/her back into the house before the police show up", and I'm sure that your dad/grandpa/uncle has told you the very same thing before. I'm not saying that that's what one should do...you do what you feel is right. The law will prevail...either on your side or on the criminals side...only a judge can determine that outcome.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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KyoSa Twigs
White Belt
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 22
Location: New York, USA
Styles: Tang Soo Do
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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So, sensei8, to make sure I'm understading you correctly, I can be arrested and possibly charged for a felony by solely defending myself, or possibly another person. I don't plan on getting in a fight, and if that should ever occur, I will focus entirely on the fight, but I would like to know what could happen to me as a result of my defending myself. I do think this is important.
The civil suits don't concern me as much, because yes, anyone can sue anyone over anything. I do still think that's important, but feel the criminal charges are paramount. Do you think a state or federal penal code, or law book, would have more information on this? |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Yes, you can. In fact, assume that you probably will be.
In fact, also add that an awful lot of "self defense" wasn't very defensive; if someone tells you to leave, and you stick up your chin and say "Nya nyah I don't have to, what're you gonna do, make me?" and they take a swing at you, your resulting fight really isn't self defense at all.
If you really are throwing your ego out and taking opportunities to leave and ignoring the posturing insults and taking reasonable precautions to not walk right into a stupid situation, and you get yourself and anyone in your charge out of dodge at the first opportunity, then you're more safe.. you're also not likely to need to fight in the first place.
You should always assume that the bad guy is going to lie about what happened, and have an awesome lawyer and maybe someone else who can frame you, though. I mean, that guy had the nerve to not fall down when he swung at you! Now someone's gotta pay!
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: |
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You could be criminally charged, however, despite all the "I heard fo this guy" stories that float around about this, I've never actually seen this happen if you're proportional and reasonable.
In civil courts this is different, but agian, if you're not charged in criminal court, your odds are pretty good in civil court as well. |
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KyoSa Twigs
White Belt
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 22
Location: New York, USA
Styles: Tang Soo Do
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| JusticeZero wrote: |
You should always assume that the bad guy is going to lie about what happened, and have an awesome lawyer and maybe someone else who can frame you, though. I mean, that guy had the nerve to not fall down when he swung at you! Now someone's gotta pay! |
That is true, JusticeZero. It's always the wrong guy or sleazey guy that has the good lawyer. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| KyoSa Twigs wrote: |
So, sensei8, to make sure I'm understading you correctly, I can be arrested and possibly charged for a felony by solely defending myself, or possibly another person. I don't plan on getting in a fight, and if that should ever occur, I will focus entirely on the fight, but I would like to know what could happen to me as a result of my defending myself. I do think this is important.
The civil suits don't concern me as much, because yes, anyone can sue anyone over anything. I do still think that's important, but feel the criminal charges are paramount. Do you think a state or federal penal code, or law book, would have more information on this? |
Yes, you can be arrested and possibly charged with a felony by solely defending youself. Why?
It's the police officer's responsibility to enforce the law, and in that, if the police officer recognizes from the facts presented to him/her that a crime was indeed committed, then the arrest will occur for you, your attacker, or both. At the arrest, you'll be charged for the crime, but, the DA could lessen the charge or increase or add to the charges based on facts. Proof isn't part of this equation because proof is for another time...in a court of law. That's when the judge could lessen, increase, add, or drop all/some of the charges.
Yes, you can obtain this information from any state/federal penal code and/or law books for any and all of the information you're seeking. To equip yourself with this information is key for every martial artist. Why?
Ignorantia juris non excusat...Ignorance of the law is no excuse!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
