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RazeMMA
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 10
Location: West Coast
Styles: Aikido, Hapkido, various styles of kung fu.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Self-defense scenarios... Reply with quote

You are wherever you are, and whatever the circumstances, this guy is coming at you with the intent on knocking your block off...will you just use basic self-defense or put him in the hospital?

Same situation only this time he has a knife...break something, put him down and out, or hospitalize him?

Same situation, only this time there's more than one...say three, unarmed.

Same situation, only this time all three are armed with knives.

My take? I'm gonna break something...and hit as many meridian points as possible...
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This comes up a lot.. came up recently in fact. The consensus seems to be that it's not the right question to ask, and that the very question makes you less able to defend yourself.
"They're doing X and Y so therefore I need to put them in the hospital now" and you look for how to get that devastating attack in.. but you could have defended yourself with a gentle push and a short jog, if you hadn't been fixated on some esoteric "appropriate level of response".
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RazeMMA
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 10
Location: West Coast
Styles: Aikido, Hapkido, various styles of kung fu.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JusticeZero wrote:
This comes up a lot.. came up recently in fact. The consensus seems to be that it's not the right question to ask, and that the very question makes you less able to defend yourself.
"They're doing X and Y so therefore I need to put them in the hospital now" and you look for how to get that devastating attack in.. but you could have defended yourself with a gentle push and a short jog, if you hadn't been fixated on some esoteric "appropriate level of response".



Interesting...but I don't see how asking the question means that I am somehow less able to defend myself. I ask these just to see what others think, because in my environment filled with gang-bangers that are running amok, stabbing and shooting and causing basic horror stories around town, my first thought is put 'em down quick and fast.

No push-n-run here...they will follow you, and there usually is more than one. They are basically cowards in my mind, never going toe-to-toe, one-on-one...it is always three or more against one.

Perhaps...in differing environments...these are inappropriate questions to ask...but where I live these scenarios are everyday occurrences. I did not mean to target a specific technique to repel a specific kind of attack, what I was getting at was do you knock out...put down...break something ...what? Since my training focuses strictly on self-defense while remaining as unharmed as possible, adult ranks train to stop the fight as quickly as possible - KO or breaking something.

Thanks for the input!
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MaxMarks
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 04 Dec 2011
Posts: 57
Location: New Hampsire
Styles: Kempo/JuJitsu/Grapling/Kick Boxing

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazeMMA wrote:
JusticeZero wrote:
and that the very question makes you less able to defend yourself.



Quote:
Interesting...but I don't see how asking the question means that I am somehow less able to defend myself.


I think what JusticeZero means here is not that the content of the question lessens your ability to defend yourself but that if you're asking that kind of question while defending yourself distracts you from the task of defending yourself. We train so we can react without thought. Hopefully, if ever in a self defense situation you react in a way that keeps you alive and don't spend time counting knifes.

It's a fun question academically but not practical to consider during a self defense situation.

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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are worried about "how much can/should I hurt these guys", you are not thinking in terms of defending yourself and getting out of danger and to safety. You are thinking about offence, ie "How much can I hurt them before they put me down?"
The goal is not to hurt them, the goal is to do what is needed to best prevent yourself from being hurt. There is a difference.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28204
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your life is in jeapordy, then you should do what needs to be done to defend it. If you can run away, then great. If you have to fight, then you have to take what is presented in the chaos of combat. I see many responses like, "I'd break something." But these responses leave out the fact that the other guy is thinking something, too.
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Liver Punch
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 417
Location: Snake Mountain
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Pro Wrestling, Gun-Fu

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My only thoughts in a self-defense situation are in regards to stopping the attack with the appropriate amount of force. If I follow this rule, then the consequences are already taken care of.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14982
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Devils advocate here....

Many MAists will say much of what's been said in this thread, but doing it, whatever 'it' is, is another thing. Many MAists won't do anything beyond voicing ideas and/or opinions for one reason or another.

Lack of realistic drills...lack of resistance drills...lack of never having used their MA skills in a real life situation; just to name a few.

Faced with any of the OP's situations should be enough to force a pause and re-evaluate one self first, and then their MA skill sets secondly.


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MaxMarks
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 04 Dec 2011
Posts: 57
Location: New Hampsire
Styles: Kempo/JuJitsu/Grapling/Kick Boxing

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been in a few self defense situations. One thing that was ringing is my head the whole time was, "don't hurt the guy." I was much more worried about hurting him that I was he would hurt me. In one situation I was actually pleading with the guy not to get up after I'd knocked him to the ground. (He was attacking other people and trying to get into a building to get at some people, so running wasn't an option for me.) I did as little as I had to to keep him at bay. I don't know any experienced martial artist that wants to hurt people that haven't agreed to step in a ring with them.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 897

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Devils advocate here....

Many MAists will say much of what's been said in this thread, but doing it, whatever 'it' is, is another thing. Many MAists won't do anything beyond voicing ideas and/or opinions for one reason or another.

Lack of realistic drills...lack of resistance drills...lack of never having used their MA skills in a real life situation; just to name a few.


This is where drilling with increasing levels of resistance, facing aggressive partners who can at least begin simulating what you'll face goes a long way. One steps and no touch drilling aren't going to get you there.

Quote:
Faced with any of the OP's situations should be enough to force a pause and re-evaluate one self first, and then their MA skill sets secondly.



This goes to something people like Col. Grossman, Rory Miller and many others who deal with the mindset of defense talk about quite a bit. And almost universally they say this is something you have to settle before hand. Go over the set ups mentally and make your decisions. That way you don't have to take those beats of time worry over what I'd be willing to do. Heck, even the samurai philosophers got in the same line of determining not to fear death so that you wouldn't hesitate when faced with it on the battlefield.

This is the mental training a martial artists must undertake if they are serious about self defense. Not the Hollywood day dreams of being the hero in the action movie, but realistically making the decision that you are the one coming home whole at the end of the day. And being clear on the steps you may have to take to do that. Then figuring out the physical training that has to go with those decisions. Upon reflection you decide you can't really put your thumbs in someone's eyes, don't bother training an eye gouge is pointless. If you can't see breaking a limb, best remember that when training joint locks.
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