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mal103
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:24 am    Post subject: Self grading seniors Reply with quote

Last year someone I knew suddenly got their 5th Dan only a year after getting their 4th, I get the impression they got hold of a signed certificate from an old org and used it as proof, i'm 100 percent sure that the cert signer would not have signed it knowing who's name was going to be written on the top.

Another case is someone who now runs a big org in the UK, I heard that they left one school as a 1st Kyu and started a club as a Nidan....

What can we do about these people, others work damn hard to prove their worth and earn their rank. The first case above used his 5th Dan to grade someone to 3rd and to join a professional governing body! Do you think they should be told, do you think they will give a damn?
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CredoTe
Red Belt
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Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Self grading seniors Reply with quote

mal103 wrote:
...
What can we do about these people, others work damn hard to prove their worth and earn their rank. The first case above used his 5th Dan to grade someone to 3rd and to join a professional governing body! Do you think they should be told, do you think they will give a damn?


In short, nothing directly. There will always be those who abuse their positions of authority, and cut corners for the sake of their egos (to obtain more authority). As for the governing body caring two bits, probably not because the Sandan is someone else to help spread the administration/overhead work around to. The only case I see the governing body caring is whether their reputation will be damaged by having said Sandan or Godan do what they're doing, and only if irrefutable proof can be shown.

How much sacrifice are you willing to go through to obtain said proof? And, in the end, is it worth it?

The way we handle these situations is to ignore those folks, and let the art prove itself. No arguing with them, no reasoning with them, just letting the art prove itself through the training/teaching. Those students that are more interested in trophies, belts, and egos will tend to go the way of the folks you mentioned above. However, those students that are in it for the training, learning, and the art, will eventually see through those guys and seek better training/learning.


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mal103
Purple Belt
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Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Self grading seniors Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:

The way we handle these situations is to ignore those folks, and let the art prove itself. No arguing with them, no reasoning with them, just letting the art prove itself through the training/teaching. Those students that are more interested in trophies, belts, and egos will tend to go the way of the folks you mentioned above. However, those students that are in it for the training, learning, and the art, will eventually see through those guys and seek better training/learning.



That is what my head and heart are thinking, i suspect a few of my students may end up in the wrong camp after a recent split but they will eventually reach a level when they realise.

I was thinking of getting a bin put by our Dojo door with a sign to say "leave your Ego in here"
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CredoTe
Red Belt
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Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Self grading seniors Reply with quote

mal103 wrote:
...
I was thinking of getting a bin put by our Dojo door with a sign to say "leave your Ego in here"


Absolutely... That's a great idea; I may have to borrow it...


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wagnerk
Purple Belt
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Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 564
Location: UK
Styles: TSD, Karate & Kickboxing

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a grey area, as different martial arts will have different requirements for their grades. Even within arts like Shotokan and Tang Soo Do, I've seen different requirements for each grade.

I've seen several Shotokan associations that will accept your rank for a year under probation, then after that will ask you to re-grade. You will then either drop down, stay the same or move up grades.

And this isn't even mentioning the unscrupulous clubs/organisations that trade ranks or sell ranks without any proof.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6135
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have the same situation often in TKD with a few notable examples recently. Unfortunately there's not a lot you can do but to get your head down and train hard yourself. In the end people realise that those who falsely obtain rank don't deserve it and those that do get taken in by it are students you can afford to lose anyway. To borrow a sensei8 maxim: the proof is on the floor!
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mazzybear
KF Sempai
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Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 656
Location: Scotland.
Styles: Wado Kai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Last year someone I knew suddenly got their 5th Dan only a year after getting their 4th



Within our association the minimum time between 4th and 5th Dan is 4 years, so someone jumping so quickly would appear very fishy to say the least. The ones buying/faking rank would probably be weeded out fairly quickly. Students with any snse would be wary of such people if they want to get the best out of their martial arts journey.

It's as dodgy as some folk inventing their own style simply to award themselves a 10th Dan. These folk are definitely ones to steer clear of.


M.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14323
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Self grading seniors Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:
mal103 wrote:
...
What can we do about these people, others work damn hard to prove their worth and earn their rank. The first case above used his 5th Dan to grade someone to 3rd and to join a professional governing body! Do you think they should be told, do you think they will give a damn?


In short, nothing directly. There will always be those who abuse their positions of authority, and cut corners for the sake of their egos (to obtain more authority). As for the governing body caring two bits, probably not because the Sandan is someone else to help spread the administration/overhead work around to. The only case I see the governing body caring is whether their reputation will be damaged by having said Sandan or Godan do what they're doing, and only if irrefutable proof can be shown.

How much sacrifice are you willing to go through to obtain said proof? And, in the end, is it worth it?

The way we handle these situations is to ignore those folks, and let the art prove itself. No arguing with them, no reasoning with them, just letting the art prove itself through the training/teaching. Those students that are more interested in trophies, belts, and egos will tend to go the way of the folks you mentioned above. However, those students that are in it for the training, learning, and the art, will eventually see through those guys and seek better training/learning.


Solid post!!



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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14323
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Self grading seniors Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:
mal103 wrote:
...
I was thinking of getting a bin put by our Dojo door with a sign to say "leave your Ego in here"


Absolutely... That's a great idea; I may have to borrow it...


LOVE IT!!


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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14323
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
We have the same situation often in TKD with a few notable examples recently. Unfortunately there's not a lot you can do but to get your head down and train hard yourself. In the end people realise that those who falsely obtain rank don't deserve it and those that do get taken in by it are students you can afford to lose anyway. To borrow a sensei8 maxim: the proof is on the floor!

Yepper...the floor is always ready to judge whether one's ready for it or not!!



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