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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
I've never seen Shindokan before, but I suspect it's similar to Shorin Ryu in its philosopy and approach to the martial arts. Shorter stances, 50/50 hands/feet, lower kicks, tuite, etc.

Comments Sensei8?

I'd say that you're very close when you say Shindokan is similar to Shorin Ryu, after all, Shindokan is Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based.

Yes, we have shorter stances, lower kicks [nothing above the stomach], tuite [tons and tons of it], but we're 85/15 with our hands/feet, and our movements are quite compact. We never back up, unless said attack denotes us to, and we're quite angular forward with our feet transitions no matter the direction.



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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,

Please pass onto your instructor, Master Scott Biskie, my sincerest thanks for allowing you and I to train in his dojang/gym that Saturday and Sunday.



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Patrick
KF Administrator

Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 28064
Location: Los Angeles, California

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the picture!

Patrick
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture!

Patrick

You're more than welcome Patrick.

Pssssst...:::whispering::: Btw, I'm the balding, yet handsome one on the left...sshhhhhh...it'll be our little secret.


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Jeffrey
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 576
Location: Alberta
Styles: Wado Kai

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This story warms my heart that you two could come together and share. I am glad you had this chance to exchange thoughts and ideas and to train together as friends should.

Thanks for sharing the picture as well. That is a great shot of you both. Frame it.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's always nice to be able to put a face with a name. Makes people seem more "real" somehow, for lack of a better way of explaining my meaning.

I like what you were saying about the tuite finish mentality. I like to explain it as locks set up strikes which set up locks which set up strikes. In a chess game the first thing you do is try to take control of the center of the board. Checkmate comes later.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29040
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Brian,

Please pass onto your instructor, Master Scott Biskie, my sincerest thanks for allowing you and I to train in his dojang/gym that Saturday and Sunday.




I will do that, Bob.

I also wanted to thank you for all the kind words you said in the post, and thank you for posting the picture. I learned a great deal from you, and Tuite was a great experience. I've always done the joint manipulation stuff with the "cooperative" uke, and you've shown me a way to approach it with more aliveness. I am greatful for that. And there is no question that there were times when I was made uncomfortable during Tuite, and it was very revealing when that happened. So much good stuff to take in. I've also been polishing up on Naifanchi kata, too.

Jeffrey wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture as well. That is a great shot of you both. Frame it.


You're welcome, Jeffrey. I plan to have an 8x10 framed and hung at the house.

Master Pain wrote:
Brian, please expound upon the pre-pivot. I think I do it too, works great on all terrain and regardless of shoes.


Absolutely, MP, and sorry for taking so long to get back to this. My computer at home went on the fritz, and I had been pretty busy at work. I demonstrated this with the stepping side kick first, and then with the round kick. In the stepping side kick, you are taking the back foot, and stepping it either up to the front foot, or past, however you would do it based on your style or situation. The way I've done side kicks lately, is you step up/together/past the lead foot, then chamber, then pivot the foot and thrust the kick out at the same time. With a pre-pivot, you have the pivot completed when you finish the step-up motion. So, when doing a step together side kick, the base foot is pointed in the opposite direction already, and then the kick is thrown.

Now, what we derived from this way of kicking is that it tends to take the hip drive out of the side kick to an extent, relying more on the power in the muscles of the leg and butt to power the kick. To alleviate some of that loss of hip drive, you could step up into a partial pivot, where the foot might be at more of like a 45 degree angle, and then drive the hips from there, but you still don't have to do the complete pivot motion. The goal behind the pre-pivot is to save the knees in the end. After years and years of pivoting on that knee, it can start to wear out. What I've also seen happen a lot in class, especially with beginners, is that instead of using the pivot to bring the kick around or drive the hips out, instead what happens is they focus on the kicking leg so much and end up "dragging" the pivot foot along with the kick. So, you get the pivot happening as a result of the kick motion, and not the other way around. And any time the knee of the base leg is playing catch-up to the kicking leg, you are looking at developing a potential knee injury. So, for a round kick like this, I teach the students to start the kick by opening up the base leg foot a little bit, then have them start the kicking motion, and make sure they pivot to generate the kick, not kick and then drag the pivot. I do this with front kicks, round kicks, and crescent kicks. My instructor does his front kicks with the base foot pointing straight forward, and I can't fathom how he does it that way. He has also had some knee surgeries done, too, so that might answer that question.

Pretty windy answer, but let me know if I need to clarify further. I hope that demonstrates what I'm talking about.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I missed this somehow. I teach kicks with a pre-pivot, and have kicked this way for some time. During the summer, we train some at the state park just outside town. The regular pivot on the supporting foot just doesn't work well under all conditions, and not failure to pivot is dangerous for your knees.

I was explaining the importance of pivoting on a round kick to a beginner recently. I told her that if she did not pivot the bottom foot and missed her kick, she could twist her knee badly, and would be crying on the ground like Nancy Kerrigan. I was met with a blank stare, which made me feel old when I realized that a grown woman was still learning the etiquette required for having a tea party with her dollies when that happened.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing about the pre-pivot...I never thought that I was doing that. Brain pointed it out to me during our training session...it was another AHA Moment for me.

See, I injured my right knee in 1981 that required surgery/rehab. I practically had to relearn how to kick with my right leg as well as how to support left leg kicks. I took quite some time, but with the help of my Dai-Soke and many of my fellow Shindokanist peers, I was able to kick/support again without losing any key elements, like balance, for example.

Nowadays, if I'm not careful, I'll throw out my right knee. I'll blame that on my getting old and not wanting to admit that I'm getting old.

Again, thanks Brian for pointing the PRE-PIVOT out to me!! I knew I kicked more differently than my fellow Shindokanists, but I just never gave it a lot of thought into it.


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sojobo
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rotating the supporting foot (prior to commencing with the kick) is not a bad way to teach beginners, particularly if they lack flexibility, but I would caution against it long term.

It is not very combatively viable as not only does it add a movement to the technique (And as a result takes longer to launch the kick), it telegraphs the technique.

More correctly, the foot/leg should be rotated as you kick.

Glad you guys had a good keiko together though.

Sojobo
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