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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yamesu wrote:
No not at all. It is fired off the front just as easily (perhaps more-so) as the back leg.
My best attempt at a written analogy would be - think Kokutsu Dachi, bringing the front leg into a Tsuru-Ashi-Dashi, then turning and extending the leg straight through into the kick. Sanshou fighters display good examples of this in practice.


I appreciate your attempt here, but could you translate to some English for me? My Japanese isn't quite that extensive. Thank you!
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yamesu
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
yamesu wrote:
No not at all. It is fired off the front just as easily (perhaps more-so) as the back leg.
My best attempt at a written analogy would be - think Kokutsu Dachi, bringing the front leg into a Tsuru-Ashi-Dashi, then turning and extending the leg straight through into the kick. Sanshou fighters display good examples of this in practice.


I appreciate your attempt here, but could you translate to some English for me? My Japanese isn't quite that extensive. Thank you!


Extremely sorry Bushido - I tend to fall into the trap of thinking that most people know what Im on about.
Kokutsu Dachi is just a backwards leaning stance, so 70% of weight on the back leg, 30% on the front, kind of like a cat-stance but a bit wider so-to-speak.
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zitAv5VdeuQ&feature=BFa&list=PLA6861E42C3D59FB4&index=21

Tsuru-Ashi-Dachi is a crane stance, 100% of the weight on the supporting leg, the other (kicking leg)
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npwL3JZOtwA&feature=autoplay&list=PLA6861E42C3D59FB4&index=18&playnext=2

Basically what I was trying to say was that from a stance where the weight is shifted to teh back leg, the front/kicking leg comes up to the knee, and then fires out a side kick through pivoting and forcing the hips out.

This guy sort of shows the transition to crane stance before the pivot and kick, but he is firing off the rear leg (so weight shifts first to the front leg).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj0BbGtRvw8

I hope this helps
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brickshooter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder whether we step in front or step in back is a result of the type of guard we use rather than any attempt to add power to our side kick. For example, in Shotokan, most use a fighting guard that squares the shoulder to the opponent. From those outside the style, it looks like Shotokan people are constantly in a front stance when they fight. Consequently it's almost impossible to conceal a side kick by stepping in back. The kicker may as well wave his arms and announce that he's intending to do a side kick because one would have to rotate the entire body 90 degrees before the step.

In contrast, TKD (in the US) generally don't use a squared guard. From an observer, the TKD fighter is using a modified horse stance. So it's impossible to cross in front.

Therefore regardless of style, crossing in front or back is more likely a result of the fighting stance that one uses rather than "this is the right way" of doing things. Tell a TKD fighter to use a squared stance and he'll end up crossing in front. Tell a Shotokan fighter to use a horse stance and he'll end up crossing in back..

Make any sense?
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brickshooter wrote:
I wonder whether we step in front or step in back is a result of the type of guard we use rather than any attempt to add power to our side kick. For example, in Shotokan, most use a fighting guard that squares the shoulder to the opponent. From those outside the style, it looks like Shotokan people are constantly in a front stance when they fight. Consequently it's almost impossible to conceal a side kick by stepping in back. The kicker may as well wave his arms and announce that he's intending to do a side kick because one would have to rotate the entire body 90 degrees before the step.

In contrast, TKD (in the US) generally don't use a squared guard. From an observer, the TKD fighter is using a modified horse stance. So it's impossible to cross in front.

Therefore regardless of style, crossing in front or back is more likely a result of the fighting stance that one uses rather than "this is the right way" of doing things. Tell a TKD fighter to use a squared stance and he'll end up crossing in front. Tell a Shotokan fighter to use a horse stance and he'll end up crossing in back..

Make any sense?
Absolutely makes sense, brickshooter. As seen from the previous posts, there really isn't any clear connection as to which style uses which, because most of us have stated we do it stepping behind as it is.

In the end, I think what you show here is that how someone perceives a technique as being "right" depends on how they are taught the technique, and in what context the technique is taught. Like your sparring stance example. And in my example, we do it differently in basics than in sparring.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yamesu wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
yamesu wrote:
No not at all. It is fired off the front just as easily (perhaps more-so) as the back leg.
My best attempt at a written analogy would be - think Kokutsu Dachi, bringing the front leg into a Tsuru-Ashi-Dashi, then turning and extending the leg straight through into the kick. Sanshou fighters display good examples of this in practice.


I appreciate your attempt here, but could you translate to some English for me? My Japanese isn't quite that extensive. Thank you!


Extremely sorry Bushido - I tend to fall into the trap of thinking that most people know what Im on about.


No problem! Thanks for the explanations here.

yamesu wrote:
Kokutsu Dachi is just a backwards leaning stance, so 70% of weight on the back leg, 30% on the front, kind of like a cat-stance but a bit wider so-to-speak.
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zitAv5VdeuQ&feature=BFa&list=PLA6861E42C3D59FB4&index=21


I can't view these right now, but it sounds like our back stance.

yamesu wrote:
Tsuru-Ashi-Dachi is a crane stance, 100% of the weight on the supporting leg, the other (kicking leg)
An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npwL3JZOtwA&feature=autoplay&list=PLA6861E42C3D59FB4&index=18&playnext=2


We do some kicking from a one leg stance, but not much, in forms.

yamesu wrote:
Basically what I was trying to say was that from a stance where the weight is shifted to teh back leg, the front/kicking leg comes up to the knee, and then fires out a side kick through pivoting and forcing the hips out.

This guy sort of shows the transition to crane stance before the pivot and kick, but he is firing off the rear leg (so weight shifts first to the front leg).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj0BbGtRvw8

I hope this helps


I hear what you are saying with the pivot and then forcing the hips out. Thanks for the explanation here.
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yamesu
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:

I hear what you are saying with the pivot and then forcing the hips out. Thanks for the explanation here.


No problems.

Some thing new to contribute to this thread-
There is a new Shoto student at the KK dojo I have been training at recently, and a couple of nights ago, we had what would resemble more of a Shoto style lesson than a Kyokushin lesson.
Anyways, long story short, we drilled the step-in-front side kick for a while on kick sheilds, and I just could not get it!
I think it feels wrong and unnatural. Perhaps because I am not used to it, but it really felt like the hips cannot generate enough power to force out the kick. It felt like the hips were turning the wrong direction before the leg snapped out, so it was really creating inertia in the opposite direction, which hindered the end power result...

I intend on drilling it a little more to see if I can pick up on a bit of the cross step (though dont really like or advocate it to begin with) and develop a little more power.

OSU.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't like doing the kick that way when I first started, either. But, after doing it for a while, I find that I can really engage my hips along with the pivot to get good power out into the kick. I'm doing a thrusting kick, as opposed to a snapping side kick (which I've never really done, anyway). Maybe that will help you out some.
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yamesu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I didn't like doing the kick that way when I first started, either. But, after doing it for a while, I find that I can really engage my hips along with the pivot to get good power out into the kick. I'm doing a thrusting kick, as opposed to a snapping side kick (which I've never really done, anyway). Maybe that will help you out some.


Thanks Bushido
That does put it more in perspective for me. I think that may be the issue I am having - Ive only really ever done snap side kicks.
After drilling it out some more over the past week I can say I have developed a little more power at the end of the kick, but when laying into a heavy bag, it still does not compare to the step behind kick. Another thing I noticed is that every now and again, my kicking foot gets caught on my supporting leg before shooting the kick out- though i think this may be due to me loading up my foot position before I move my foot past the support leg...
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