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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
Which take us back to square one ,they adopt the lower guard becuase they are not worried about being punched in the face ...


That was why I referenced Ali. He kept his hands low as he fought, because he was quick and an excellent counterpuncher and wanted his opponents to think he was leaving an opening.

Quote:
bouncing on the foot would be wrong if you bounce up and down ,not if you are going forward and back on the ball of your feet , it gives you fluidity to go in any direction you want . Great emphasis and attention was given to us not to do that ...

if you see them bouncing up and down then they are not doing it right ,they will be very easy to score on or swept off their feet .


If you establish a rhythm with that bouncing, all they have to do is time when you do your forward movement and they can easily catch you off balance. It probably works in a format when you typically only have to worry about one technique at a time, but in continous fighting it's a big weakness.

I'm still letting you critique the video bassaiguy posted before I say my piece on it. Pretty impressive knockout actually.
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pers
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
Which take us back to square one ,they adopt the lower guard becuase they are not worried about being punched in the face ...


That was why I referenced Ali. He kept his hands low as he fought, because he was quick and an excellent counterpuncher and wanted his opponents to think he was leaving an opening.

Quote:
bouncing on the foot would be wrong if you bounce up and down ,not if you are going forward and back on the ball of your feet , it gives you fluidity to go in any direction you want . Great emphasis and attention was given to us not to do that ...

if you see them bouncing up and down then they are not doing it right ,they will be very easy to score on or swept off their feet .


If you establish a rhythm with that bouncing, all they have to do is time when you do your forward movement and they can easily catch you off balance. It probably works in a format when you typically only have to worry about one technique at a time, but in continous fighting it's a big weakness.

I'm still letting you critique the video bassaiguy posted before I say my piece on it. Pretty impressive knockout actually.


There are ways and means not to be predictable with your rythem ...all about experience and quality .

The video he posted was great ...but to me it is not an evidence of one style over another ...this is my unbiased view on it ...although the shotokan guy won ...
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
The video he posted was great ...but to me it is not an evidence of one style over another ...this is my unbiased view on it ...although the shotokan guy won ...


How do you know he's a Shotokan fighter though?
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pers
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
The video he posted was great ...but to me it is not an evidence of one style over another ...this is my unbiased view on it ...although the shotokan guy won ...


How do you know he's a Shotokan fighter though?

I am a bit phsycic..!
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
The video he posted was great ...but to me it is not an evidence of one style over another ...this is my unbiased view on it ...although the shotokan guy won ...


How do you know he's a Shotokan fighter though?

I am a bit phsicic !


Don't play the lotto anytime soon. That's actually Shihan Nick da Costa, 6th Dan in Kyokushin Karate and who has only studied Kyokushin Karate.

http://www.docklandsdojo.co.uk/page4.htm
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pers
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
The video he posted was great ...but to me it is not an evidence of one style over another ...this is my unbiased view on it ...although the shotokan guy won ...


How do you know he's a Shotokan fighter though?

I am a bit phsicic !


Don't play the lotto anytime soon. That's actually Shihan Nick da Costa, 6th Dan in Kyokushin Karate and who has only studied Kyokushin Karate.

http://www.docklandsdojo.co.uk/page4.htm


No wonder I have never won anything in the lotto ! is it really ? I know of nick Decosta ,he is from England with sensei Arneil ,his usiro mawash is very much like shotokan delivery ...anyway I did originaly say that the winner of that fight does nort necessarily mean a superior style even thought I thought he was shotokan ...so there you go dude ...
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just stepping in and trying not to get things hot, but if kyokushin fighters have a bad habit of keeping their hands low and leaving their faces open to punches, what about the shotokan instructor in the video you posted pers? The one time the instructor has any distance between himself and the uke, his hands are just above his waist. Thus, leaving his head open for punches. The rest are pre-set demonstrations where he doesn't move enough to demonstrate whether or not he can get to angles, cover and create openings. I'm not commenting on his skill, just that the video presented doesn't make the case you're trying to make for Shotokan.

Kyokushin's huge advantage over styles that do stop and go, non-contact sparring(which includes the majority of Shotokan dojos), is that they understand and can deal with the dynamics of a fight. They know what it is to get hit, hard, and keep moving. They know how to hit hard because they have actually hit people hard. Moving off of a hit, rolling with the punch/kick to minimize the damage and know how to use posture to generate power and soak up a shot are part of what they do.

Not every Shotokan dojo trains their fighters to fight on a rail, but plenty do. Just as not every one of them does non-contact point sparring, but many do. Some Shotokan will teach their people to keep their hands up in an honest guard, to circle and look for angles. They will even make hard contact and spar continuously. But, they aren't the majority. There is a reason the reputation is our there.
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
No wonder I have never won anything in the lotto ! is it really ? I know of nick Decosta ,he is from England with sensei Arneil ,his usiro mawash is very much like shotokan delivery ...anyway I did originaly say that the winner of that fight does nort necessarily mean a superior style even thought I thought he was shotokan ...so there you go dude ...


The problem is you are trying to compare two completely different fighting formats. If your entire strategy revolves around landing one clean hit to win, it's quite different from one where you have to hurt your opponent badly enough that he cannot continue. Instead of comparing two boxers, you are essentially comparing fencing and boxing.

In systems which revolve around full contact fighting you will get a variety of fighting styles within that same system. You have your punchers and your kickers, your dancers and your tanks, your outside fighters and inside fighters, your flashy guys and simple but effective guys.

You claimed that a Kyokushin fighter fights nothing like Shotokan but then couldn't tell the difference. You claim to be unbiased yet started this thread out of nowhere. I have trained with several Shotokan folk in my day and though there sanbon and ippon kumite was solid the minute we went to continuous fighting they had a lot of difficulty reacting and coping. Rather than making untrue assumptions why don't you try some training with the Kyokushin folks over your way? I have a feeling you might surprise yourself in more ways than one...
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoriKid wrote:
Just stepping in and trying not to get things hot, but if kyokushin fighters have a bad habit of keeping their hands low and leaving their faces open to punches, what about the shotokan instructor in the video you posted pers? The one time the instructor has any distance between himself and the uke, his hands are just above his waist. Thus, leaving his head open for punches. The rest are pre-set demonstrations where he doesn't move enough to demonstrate whether or not he can get to angles, cover and create openings. I'm not commenting on his skill, just that the video presented doesn't make the case you're trying to make for Shotokan.


Glad I looked before I said the same thing. I saw the same thing.

Quote:
Kyokushin's huge advantage over styles that do stop and go, non-contact sparring(which includes the majority of Shotokan dojos), is that they understand and can deal with the dynamics of a fight. They know what it is to get hit, hard, and keep moving. They know how to hit hard because they have actually hit people hard. Moving off of a hit, rolling with the punch/kick to minimize the damage and know how to use posture to generate power and soak up a shot are part of what they do.

Not every Shotokan dojo trains their fighters to fight on a rail, but plenty do. Just as not every one of them does non-contact point sparring, but many do. Some Shotokan will teach their people to keep their hands up in an honest guard, to circle and look for angles. They will even make hard contact and spar continuously. But, they aren't the majority. There is a reason the reputation is our there.


Well said ShoriKid.
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pers
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
No wonder I have never won anything in the lotto ! is it really ? I know of nick Decosta ,he is from England with sensei Arneil ,his usiro mawash is very much like shotokan delivery ...anyway I did originaly say that the winner of that fight does nort necessarily mean a superior style even thought I thought he was shotokan ...so there you go dude ...


The problem is you are trying to compare two completely different fighting formats. If your entire strategy revolves around landing one clean hit to win, it's quite different from one where you have to hurt your opponent badly enough that he cannot continue. Instead of comparing two boxers, you are essentially comparing fencing and boxing.

In systems which revolve around full contact fighting you will get a variety of fighting styles within that same system. You have your punchers and your kickers, your dancers and your tanks, your outside fighters and inside fighters, your flashy guys and simple but effective guys.













You claimed that a Kyokushin fighter fights nothing like Shotokan but then couldn't tell the difference. You claim to be unbiased yet started this thread out of nowhere. I have trained with several Shotokan folk in my day and though there sanbon and ippon kumite was solid the minute we went to continuous fighting they had a lot of difficulty reacting and coping. Rather than making untrue assumptions why don't you try some training with the Kyokushin folks over your way? I have a feeling you might surprise yourself in more ways than one...


The problem is that you are too protective of your school and when someone points out the flaws you can't stand the criticism .

I pointed out the differences and stand by what I said , problem is you only want to read parts that suit . I have trained and sparr with some Kyukoshin and other styles in the past so I dont need to go and train with them to find out what I already know .

At the end of the day these are both martial arts , they are both suppose to be a means to an end . Yes our strategy is to end the conflict as quick as possible ,idealy with one technique ..idealy I said !

we dont like to stand up face to face and exchange blows to find out who can last longer , we dont like to get hit but to avoid getting hit and dish out our own strikes ...that the difference that you claimed I have failed to address and you keep brushing aside .

Its intersting that you call me biased yet you base your opinion on shotokan from a breif contact you had with some shotokan people and decided they are no good at fighting just good at one step three step kumite !

Its not about individuals who can be talented or not , had proper training or not , and they exist in any school . Its about the concept and structure of the system as a whole , that is why I said I would not base my opinion on the two individuals in kumite that Basaiguy posted .
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