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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
The problem is that you are too protective of your school and when someone points out the flaws you can't stand the criticism.


Actually I take criticism pretty well. I'm just merely pointing out your thinking is flawed. I have stated many times that my opinion of the Kyokushin style of kumite being superior to most other karate styles as such, yet in another thread you immediately jumped in and took great offense to what I said as if it was a personal slight. It wasn't. In my opinion playing tag in a karate dogi creates a very unrealistic expectation of what a real fighting encounter is like. That's all.

Quote:
I pointed out the differences and stand by what I said , problem is you only want to read parts that suit . I have trained and sparr with some Kyukoshin and other styles in the past so I dont need to go and train with them to find out what I already know .


What you "know" is highly incorrect though, hence why I would encourage you to explore that route again.

Quote:
At the end of the day these are both martial arts , they are both suppose to be a means to an end . Yes our strategy is to end the conflict as quick as possible ,idealy with one technique ..idealy I said !

we dont like to stand up face to face and exchange blows to find out who can last longer , we dont like to get hit but to avoid getting hit and dish out our own strikes ...that the difference that you claimed I have failed to address and you keep brushing aside .


That's not the goal of Kyokushin either, though. Especially in a tournament where you will have to fight several opponents, you want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible so you are fresh and uninjured for your next bout. They want that one hit stopping power just as much as every other karateka. The problem is we learn that realistically stopping a tough opponent with one hit is quite a difficult task, and is a dangerous assumption to believe that you can always do so. If you don't spar with full contact and without stopping until the other person drops, you won't experience that.

Quote:
Its intersting that you call me biased yet you base your opinion on shotokan from a breif contact you had with some shotokan people and decided they are no good at fighting just good at one step three step kumite !


You seem to be making an assumption about something that was not said. All I said was "I have trained with several Shotokan folk in my day and though there sanbon and ippon kumite was solid the minute we went to continuous fighting they had a lot of difficulty reacting and coping." Does that address Shotokan as a whole? No.

You seem to be accusing me of bashing Shotokan, but that's really not the case and you haven't proven it to be the case. Perhaps you might want to review what has been said, it might cause you to stop making such hasty accusations.
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dave3006
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 24


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no doubt Kyokushin fighters are tough. But, I have to say training to fight where an you and your opponent can not strike to the head is about the silliest thing I have ever seen.

You will fight in real life how you train. If you train unconcerned about punches to the head, you will develop habits that a good boxer will DESTROY you with.

You would have been better off never training at all.

Fighting without allowing punches to the face ignores the most basic of all martial arts principles - you attack your opponent were he is weakest and you defend where you are weak. Martial arts are about the chance of the weak to defeat the strong through intelligent fighting.

It is so ridiculous that I am almost speechless.

Kyokushin is a tough guy contest. It is not a martial art.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, okay. Lets start at the beginning.

dave3006 wrote:
I have no doubt Kyokushin fighters are tough. But, I have to say training to fight where an you and your opponent can not strike to the head is about the silliest thing I have ever seen.
First, lets set some things straight. In competition they are restricted from punching to the head. Full power kicks to the head are common. Kyokushin fighters are good at stopping them. They learn to cover very effectively.

Quote:
You will fight in real life how you train. If you train unconcerned about punches to the head, you will develop habits that a good boxer will DESTROY you with.

Just about the time that boxer, having trained without concern for kicks, will have his legs cut from under him. When he can't stand, he will be destroyed. See how easy it is to pick apart a styles competitive holes?

Quote:
You would have been better off never training at all.

No, not at all. Strong fighting skills, the ability to continue to fight after you've been hit and the ability, and know this will shock some, to aim a punch 6 inches higher and blast someone in the face.

Quote:
Fighting without allowing punches to the face ignores the most basic of all martial arts principles - you attack your opponent were he is weakest and you defend where you are weak. Martial arts are about the chance of the weak to defeat the strong through intelligent fighting.

No, they aren't about the weak defeating the strong. They are about increasing fighting and self defense skills. It has nothing to do with weak vs. strong. Only dealing with a threat. Kyokushin does that in it's own way.

Quote:
It is so ridiculous that I am almost speechless.

Kyokushin is a tough guy contest. It is not a martial art.
There are thousands of skill Kyokushin fighters out there, martial artists all and accorded as such by others, who would disagree with you. That's the most civil reply I can give to something like that and I'm not even a Kyokushin stylist.

Each and every martial arts competition venue has a flaw for the safety of it's participants. Many don't allow continuous fighting, but stop, point sparring with little or no contact. No contact below the waist, some don't allow kicks. Some don't allow knees or elbows or throws. None of them perfectly mimic a real fight and many don't aim to. So, pick your poison and be careful of your words when being highly critical of a martial arts competitive format.
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dave3006
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 24


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being critical is good. It helps you find the FLAWS in things. You were given a brain for a reason. Use it.

If you can't see how the style of sparring they practice WILL build bad habits that will get you hurt, I can't help you.

Good luck with your dentist bill should you ever get in a real fight.
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave3006 wrote:
I have no doubt Kyokushin fighters are tough. But, I have to say training to fight where an you and your opponent can not strike to the head is about the silliest thing I have ever seen.


Kyokushin does train to deliver and defend against head strikes. Many dojos spar with such and light gloves. As I mentioned in another thread, I currently have a split lip from taking a hard right from a sparring partner in my Kyokushin class. Knockdown fighting is a separate issue.

Knockdown fighting wasn't always that way either. They used to allow punches to the face, but due to the amount of damage it was causing and the laws against illegal prizefighting, Oyama had to either decide to allow gloves or to ban punches to the head. Since Oyama thought just adding gloves would make it just like kickboxing, he went for the latter. Interestingly enough, in the late 1970s he encouraged one of his students, Takashi Azuma, to develop a new ruleset for Kyokushin. Azuma developed one and presented it to Oyama, but by that time knockdown fighting was so popular Oyama couldn't change it without making major waves. Azuma got permission to go his own path with his new ruleset, and that's how Daido Juku/Kudo was born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqxwBNrum5c

Many Kyokushin organizations have been hosting tournaments allowing gloved strikes to the head for years now. Knockdown fighting is still the most popular of the ruleset, and since Kyokushin does not have as much exposure here in the US than it does in Europe and Asia that's typically all people see.

Quote:
You will fight in real life how you train. If you train unconcerned about punches to the head, you will develop habits that a good boxer will DESTROY you with.


Personally I think training to pull your strikes and believe one shot is all you need to win a fight is a far more dangerous mentality to impart in a student.

Quote:
Kyokushin is a tough guy contest. It is not a martial art.


Karate itself technically is not a martial art, as it was never used in war. If you want to explain why you don't feel it's a martial art, you're free to it. However don't be surprised when you find out it's an incorrect assumption.
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Kuma
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave3006 wrote:
If you can't see how the style of sparring they practice WILL build bad habits that will get you hurt, I can't help you.


Please explain the benefits of sparring under a system where you get in trouble for hitting too hard, the referee stops the fight after a strike is delivered, penalties for targeting anything below the waist, disallowing knee strikes, and disallowing the ambiguous "techniques which by their nature cannot be controlled." It's essentially a formalized game of tag.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave3006 wrote:
Being critical is good. It helps you find the FLAWS in things. You were given a brain for a reason. Use it.

If you can't see how the style of sparring they practice WILL build bad habits that will get you hurt, I can't help you.

Good luck with your dentist bill should you ever get in a real fight.


I was also taught to be civil and avoid broad generalizations built on weak supposition. That's another way to use the grey matter between my ears.

I can see how treating an actual fight like a competition bout will get anyone hurt. Like boxers without kicking defense or the ability to stop a take down.

Post up the rules you spar under and I will be happy to point out the bad habits you're building for a fight. The ones that a truck can be driven through and will lead to high medical expenses. It can be done to any style, any format of competition and sparring. Easily. Again, there is a flaw built into the competitive method of every style for the safety of competitors. Kyokushin folks don't avoid punches to the face because they don't think they work. It has a whole lot to do with bare knuckle, full force punches to the face leading to lots of lacerations, broken noses and general head trauma.
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pers
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma wrote:
pers wrote:
The problem is that you are too protective of your school and when someone points out the flaws you can't stand the criticism.


Actually I take criticism pretty well. I'm just merely pointing out your thinking is flawed. I have stated many times that my opinion of the Kyokushin style of kumite being superior to most other karate styles as such, yet in another thread you immediately jumped in and took great offense to what I said as if it was a personal slight. It wasn't. In my opinion playing tag in a karate dogi creates a very unrealistic expectation of what a real fighting encounter is like. That's all.

Quote:
I pointed out the differences and stand by what I said , problem is you only want to read parts that suit . I have trained and sparr with some Kyukoshin and other styles in the past so I dont need to go and train with them to find out what I already know .


What you "know" is highly incorrect though, hence why I would encourage you to explore that route again.

Quote:
At the end of the day these are both martial arts , they are both suppose to be a means to an end . Yes our strategy is to end the conflict as quick as possible ,idealy with one technique ..idealy I said !

we dont like to stand up face to face and exchange blows to find out who can last longer , we dont like to get hit but to avoid getting hit and dish out our own strikes ...that the difference that you claimed I have failed to address and you keep brushing aside .


That's not the goal of Kyokushin either, though. Especially in a tournament where you will have to fight several opponents, you want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible so you are fresh and uninjured for your next bout. They want that one hit stopping power just as much as every other karateka. The problem is we learn that realistically stopping a tough opponent with one hit is quite a difficult task, and is a dangerous assumption to believe that you can always do so. If you don't spar with full contact and without stopping until the other person drops, you won't experience that.

Quote:
Its intersting that you call me biased yet you base your opinion on shotokan from a breif contact you had with some shotokan people and decided they are no good at fighting just good at one step three step kumite !


You seem to be making an assumption about something that was not said. All I said was "I have trained with several Shotokan folk in my day and though there sanbon and ippon kumite was solid the minute we went to continuous fighting they had a lot of difficulty reacting and coping." Does that address Shotokan as a whole? No.

You seem to be accusing me of bashing Shotokan, but that's really not the case and you haven't proven it to be the case. Perhaps you might want to review what has been said, it might cause you to stop making such hasty accusations.


when you bring up the example of your contact with shotokan people and how bad they were at free kumite then you are trying to point about shotokan as a whole ,not about few unknown individuals who happen to be from shotokan .

remember we are talking about the styles in general ,not individuals ...

How do you mean that's not the goal of kyukoshin ? if you fight with your guards down because of the safety of knowing you wont get punched in the face, but you want to end the fight as quickly as possible , knowing well that the best way to knock someone out is to punch them on the chin .

I refer you to the first video of JKA I posted ,watch those knockouts with the face punch , is that more realistic and like the real thing or punching someone in the chest and body until they hopefully give up or drop ?

That is what we discussing ,not how good I am in karate or you are or the shotokan individuals you met and they couldn't take your kind of kumite .

shotokan karate is a martial art ,competition is only a small prt of it ,but it is not a gladiator sport ,you can do that if you like that sort of thing and you are tough and strong and young .

shotokan is about giving skills and ability regradless of your age and physical condition and your size and weight , if you can find a good school and teacher and are willing to put in the hard work .
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Kuma
Black Belt
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Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092


PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
when you bring up the example of your contact with shotokan people and how bad they were at free kumite then you are trying to point about shotokan as a whole ,not about few unknown individuals who happen to be from shotokan .


Is it really me bashing the Shotokan system? Seems to me if you don't want criticism you're being very hypocritical considering how you started off this thread.

Quote:
remember we are talking about the styles in general ,not individuals ...


Actually we're talking training methods. Is there any Shotokan tournaments that allow full contact bare knuckle strikes to the face during a continuous fight?

Quote:
How do you mean that's not the goal of kyukoshin ? if you fight with your guards down because of the safety of knowing you wont get punched in the face, but you want to end the fight as quickly as possible , knowing well that the best way to knock someone out is to punch them on the chin .

I refer you to the first video of JKA I posted ,watch those knockouts with the face punch , is that more realistic and like the real thing or punching someone in the chest and body until they hopefully give up or drop ?

That is what we discussing ,not how good I am in karate or you are or the shotokan individuals you met and they couldn't take your kind of kumite .

shotokan karate is a martial art ,competition is only a small prt of it ,but it is not a gladiator sport ,you can do that if you like that sort of thing and you are tough and strong and young .

shotokan is about giving skills and ability regradless of your age and physical condition and your size and weight , if you can find a good school and teacher and are willing to put in the hard work .


The JKA video you posted shows virtually all of those same fighters keeping their guard at the same place, so I fail to see how that's a strong argument.

Does Kyokushin have tournament formats that allow head strikes? Yes, just not bare knuckle ones. Knockdown fighting is its own sport. Kyokushin created knockdown fighting but does not only fight knockdown. The creator of K-1 started it because he was a Kyokushin fighter and wanted his fighters to help get a start into the kickboxing realm. Many fighters in K-1 are Kyokushin or its offshoots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye_Cq_cNon0

You claim the competition is just one aspect and that I need to look past that. Perhaps you need to do the same.
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pers
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma ,the video you posted was great ,and I also read the description that was added saying this has been going since 2007 . I was very pleased to see that , I have no problem with kyukoshin or any other school of martial arts . I actually think that kyukoshin karatekas are extremely tough and can strke well ,but if this kind of kumite has taken on in kyukoshin then good luck to all of them .

perhaps the way you saw the hand position of those JKA fighters is the way they were taught at early in dan grades where they say there is no kamae or guard ,from the outside they look like two street fighters , hands slightly open and body relaxed and coiled like a spring , evaluating and trying to intimidate and manipulate the opponent .

I personally think that is the best guard to have ,showing nothing of your intentions and having all your weapons at the ready and feet in best position to take you in any direction need be .Those JKA guys are extremmely fast with their feet and hands and they can move ,they are not superman ,they just learned how to move fast and hit hard and avoid being hit ...all relative ofcourse ,depending who meets who !
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