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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
I think I'm going against the grain here... but yes, you should absolutely aspire to be better than your teacher. And as teachers you should absolutely want your students to strive to become better than you. It's not an ego thing. To me you should be inspired by your seniors and work as hard as you can to better yourself and try to bring yourself up to their level.
I think I've quoted this on KF before but this from Isaac Newton seems appropriate: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants". To me the greatest thing you can give back to your style and honour those who taught you is to strive to make yourself better and build upon the foundation they gave you. Especially in this day and age when information can be shared so easily, you should always want to be better.
Let me flip the question the other way, if you are never better than your teacher, and your students are never better than you, doesn't the art just become diluted? |
To the bold type above...
Nope!!
Just how many MA styles have been diluted?? Many MA styles are STILL around!!
Again, who's to say that YOU/I/WHOMEVER is better than their Sensei?? Well, in my case, I suppose Soke would be better to make that determination if I'm better than Dai-Soke because Soke taught Dai-Soke.
My Governing Body?? NO WAY!! That would be an assumption that bears no fruit.
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It's not about saying you are better. It's about going into the dojo every time and working your hardest to be the best you can be. Aspire to be better. Work you hardest to be better otherwise you've already put limitations on yourself. To me saying I can never be as good as them is already constructing barriers and putting limitations on yourself.
I guess this is where TKD differs as in ITF TKD our founder was explicit in that the greatest compliment a student could pay their instructor is to surpass him. In General Choi's Encyclopedia (The TKD Bible) it explicitly says:
"An instructor should be eager for students to surpass him; it is the ultimate compliment for an instructor. A student should never be held back. If an instructor realizes his student has developed beyond his teaching capabilities, the student should be sent to a higher ranking instructor."
It's about building on those before and aspiring to something better.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Yes. You totally should. And as instructors and coaches we should try to help them do so. We have the knowledge of, in many cases, 20-30 years of experience, good and bad, in learning these arts. Maybe we've even put them to use either in competition, reality, or both. Those are huge points that let us cut through the theory we gained from the last generation. We are the new conduit for advances in adult learning theory and the science of human performance that our coach's simply didn't have access to yet.
These are massive advantages. If we're doing our jobs right our students SHOULD be better than us. If they are not, they haven't failed, we have.
_________________
http://alphajiujitsu.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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We should as students strive to be better than we are.
As teachers we should strive to be better than we are and conversely make our students better than they are.
I think ego plays a role in the question of being better than our teachers. This only happens if our teachers teach us everything they know which requires them to, at some point, stop learning so we can catch up. This as they say is a fools erand.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16417
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
We should as students strive to be better than we are.
As teachers we should strive to be better than we are and conversely make our students better than they are.
I think ego plays a role in the question of being better than our teachers. This only happens if our teachers teach us everything they know which requires them to, at some point, stop learning so we can catch up. This as they say is a fools erand. |
Solid post!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16417
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
I think I'm going against the grain here... but yes, you should absolutely aspire to be better than your teacher. And as teachers you should absolutely want your students to strive to become better than you. It's not an ego thing. To me you should be inspired by your seniors and work as hard as you can to better yourself and try to bring yourself up to their level.
I think I've quoted this on KF before but this from Isaac Newton seems appropriate: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants". To me the greatest thing you can give back to your style and honour those who taught you is to strive to make yourself better and build upon the foundation they gave you. Especially in this day and age when information can be shared so easily, you should always want to be better.
Let me flip the question the other way, if you are never better than your teacher, and your students are never better than you, doesn't the art just become diluted? |
To the bold type above...
Nope!!
Just how many MA styles have been diluted?? Many MA styles are STILL around!!
Again, who's to say that YOU/I/WHOMEVER is better than their Sensei?? Well, in my case, I suppose Soke would be better to make that determination if I'm better than Dai-Soke because Soke taught Dai-Soke.
My Governing Body?? NO WAY!! That would be an assumption that bears no fruit.
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It's not about saying you are better. It's about going into the dojo every time and working your hardest to be the best you can be. Aspire to be better. Work you hardest to be better otherwise you've already put limitations on yourself. To me saying I can never be as good as them is already constructing barriers and putting limitations on yourself.
I guess this is where TKD differs as in ITF TKD our founder was explicit in that the greatest compliment a student could pay their instructor is to surpass him. In General Choi's Encyclopedia (The TKD Bible) it explicitly says:
"An instructor should be eager for students to surpass him; it is the ultimate compliment for an instructor. A student should never be held back. If an instructor realizes his student has developed beyond his teaching capabilities, the student should be sent to a higher ranking instructor."
It's about building on those before and aspiring to something better. |
This is the conversation people have I suppose when the word "better" is used, like in the bold word way above.
Once again, of course we want our students to be better than us, like we parents want our children to be better than us.
I too, want my students to be far better than me, therefore, I hold nothing back from my students; holding things back from my students is a disgrace on my part.
Aspire, better, whatever label we choose to attach to it, I have never came to my Dai-Soke with the intent of ever being better than him; I just want to be better today than I was yesterday.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
I think I'm going against the grain here... but yes, you should absolutely aspire to be better than your teacher. And as teachers you should absolutely want your students to strive to become better than you. It's not an ego thing. To me you should be inspired by your seniors and work as hard as you can to better yourself and try to bring yourself up to their level.
I think I've quoted this on KF before but this from Isaac Newton seems appropriate: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants". To me the greatest thing you can give back to your style and honour those who taught you is to strive to make yourself better and build upon the foundation they gave you. Especially in this day and age when information can be shared so easily, you should always want to be better.
Let me flip the question the other way, if you are never better than your teacher, and your students are never better than you, doesn't the art just become diluted? |
To the bold type above...
Nope!!
Just how many MA styles have been diluted?? Many MA styles are STILL around!!
Again, who's to say that YOU/I/WHOMEVER is better than their Sensei?? Well, in my case, I suppose Soke would be better to make that determination if I'm better than Dai-Soke because Soke taught Dai-Soke.
My Governing Body?? NO WAY!! That would be an assumption that bears no fruit.
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It's not about saying you are better. It's about going into the dojo every time and working your hardest to be the best you can be. Aspire to be better. Work you hardest to be better otherwise you've already put limitations on yourself. To me saying I can never be as good as them is already constructing barriers and putting limitations on yourself.
I guess this is where TKD differs as in ITF TKD our founder was explicit in that the greatest compliment a student could pay their instructor is to surpass him. In General Choi's Encyclopedia (The TKD Bible) it explicitly says:
"An instructor should be eager for students to surpass him; it is the ultimate compliment for an instructor. A student should never be held back. If an instructor realizes his student has developed beyond his teaching capabilities, the student should be sent to a higher ranking instructor."
It's about building on those before and aspiring to something better. |
This is the conversation people have I suppose when the word "better" is used, like in the bold word way above.
Once again, of course we want our students to be better than us, like we parents want our children to be better than us.
I too, want my students to be far better than me, therefore, I hold nothing back from my students; holding things back from my students is a disgrace on my part.
Aspire, better, whatever label we choose to attach to it, I have never came to my Dai-Soke with the intent of ever being better than him; I just want to be better today than I was yesterday.
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Well put.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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G95champ
Black Belt
Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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A teacher should want all his students to be better than him.
_________________
(General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| G95champ wrote: |
| A teacher should want all his students to be better than him. |
Well put and I, as a teacher do. However as previously stated, this is not an easy task nor do I wish my students to set this as their goal nor do I set this as my goal. Yes my mantra is to train and teach all that I know so that the next generation can carry the torch and continue the art. I personally believe that we as teachers owe this to our teachers and their teachers as a way to pay them back for the knowledge they taught us. So yes I do wish for my students to be better than me. However is this realistic?
If my teacher started training at the age of, lets say 15, and I started training with him when he was, lets say 30. This is 15 years more time on the floor than me. How do you make that experience up?
Most that aspire to teach and own their own Dojo don't just train twice a week. The arts are their life and thus train everyday. If, in the example above, I were 15 years behind my teacher and he trained faithfully everyday over the course of that 15 years, how do I then advance beyond him? How do I have the same experiences. He trained with/under three of our top teachers and as such has been exposed to knowledge and little nuances that his students have not. He studied other arts that I have not. His teachers were different than he was and taught differently. We would assume that you are learning the best of what he/she was taught but in all reality you have no way of gauging this.
To say that we want our students to be better than us is a goal that we all should have as teachers. However no two people have the same experiences and thus, unless taught, we will never over come their knowledge of the art because as they are teaching us they are still learning. Kinda of hard to catch up unless they stop so we can advance.
It's a never ending journey and one is always a student of the art and thus constantly learning.
I could be 90 and my Shinshii will be long gone and I will not have learned all that he knew because I can never have the same experiences and lets face it we are human and some information is not taught for whatever reasons. To me the goal of a student is to be better tomorrow than they were today. This is the only realistic gauge we can aspire to.
Then again this question is also subjective. Maybe we are speaking purely in terms of ability and not necessarily knowledge and skill. Since we are all different and some have more natural ability than others then it is possible to be better in ability than your teacher in time. However you must first define the word "better". If "better" defines all aspects then I say again, "this is a fools errand". My Shinshii is now 91 years young. In terms of fighting I could probably better him due to the fact that as we age our bodies can not take the same amount of damage. However in terms of skill and knowledge of the art he puts me to shame.
If the gauge of "better" means being able to beat your teacher at some point in time, father time will make that goal come true and you can say you're better. For me I do not see "better" in these terms. To me better means learning all that they know, developing the same skills and the same abilities and going beyond them. This might be possible in time but not an easy quest. Even then, as stated above, you will never have the same experiences so how do you gauge when you are "better"?
In my case, my teacher had decades on me and still trains. If he died tomorrow (God forbid) would I have enough life left to accomplish this goal? Would I even want to? What would this gain me?
Or maybe we are talking in terms of humanity. Being better human beings than our teachers. This is definitely possible. Maybe your teacher has some questionable morals. You could definitely be better than they were.
But this is all semantics. Better means better in terms of the arts and that is defined by being better in all things. If not can you really say you are better? And in this, I do not personally think this is possible in every instance. At least for me in terms of being better than my teacher this would truely be a fools errand in every sense.
I prefer to concentrate on things I can control like improving beyond yesterday or last week or last month or last year. My gauge of success is not hinged on whether I meet some mythical goal but whether I have improved each and every day. In terms of teaching the same apply's. I do not gauge my students based on me but whether they are better than they were in the past and whether they are where they should be in their training.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16417
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Either my students are or my students aren't!! I don't dwell on it, even though it's my longest desire, and that's for others to determine, if that's their thing to do. I never set out 53 years ago to be better than my Dai-Soke, either I am or I'm not. But to be honest, I don't care one way or another if I am or if I'm not.
As Dai-Soke's student, I do truly think, like many of you here do when you think about your Sensei, that my Sensei is beyond contestation with his amazing MA abilities; untouchable and above me in every way.
Like I do with my own children, I want my students to be better than me across the board. I give my students the same love and guidance that I've given to my own children with an unlimited resolve.
I give me students, and my children, all of the tools I believe that they'll need to be that successful MAist, and that beacon of hopes and desires and dreams; attainable and reachable goals to touch the stars and beyond.
If either, my children and my students, aren't better than me, than I've failed them!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I think in response to comments that you can never be better than a teacher that is still learning, I think you can. Consider a teacher that is still learning the teachings of his teacher. His teacher may have long since retired or died, but may have left a legacy of books and other students that serve as reference.
The student that aims to be better than the teacher that is still learning, might look not only to his teacher, but also to teachers of others styles. A student may find something in tai chi perhaps that casts new light on a particular principle that their main teacher taught.
This is not to say that the student actually is better than his teacher. But such a student, in seeking knowledge that his teacher can't provide, is demonstrating a drive to become better beyond what his teacher teaches.
The student that only takes knowledge from one teacher will never be as good as his teacher, because he is bound to miss something. Such a student is then going to let down his own students when he becomes a teacher, because he's ignored opportunities to further refine his own understanding. |
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on the post.
