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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 238
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject: Shugyo Training Reply with quote

Does anyone do Shugyo (austerity) training? I was considering adding it to the curriculum in 2020, probably only once per year, but I would like to get ideas first.

Thanks in advance.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14811
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We train in Shugyo training; one of its staples. To us, Shugyo is training, and training in its raw unforgivable core, To us, Shugyo is ShuHaRi, and ShuHaRi is Shugyo; inseparable. In ShuHaRi, and with every element that is Shindokan, it has Shu (Protect), Ha (Break), Ri (Separation).

Each aspect of Shu Ha Ri has Shugyo deeply interwoven in it, and without, neither can exist effectively. Life is hard; so is training in the MA, or at least it should be. So, we've been taught to turn doubt into reality, therefore, while the overall training in the MA is hard at every level of ShuHaRI, Shugyo mindset prohibits complaining; suck it up...or get off the floor until the proper respect can be given to the floor. Shugyo never ends; it's an ongoing process that chips away as it molds.

The goal of Shugyo is for the student to gradually absorb knowledge about the discipline and this is to be done instinctive. No student gets any feedback; little, if any, and if any is provided, it's quite little. Students don't get it regarding their performance in the discipline. They don't get any direct input or feedback as to what and how to do things. They are expected to experience training, in which, they've just got to put the puzzle pieces together of their own.

Our Dai-Soke was quite fond of always reminding us all...SHUGYO...his way of telling us all to SUCK IT UP; quite complaining/whining because we're there to train.

Well, that's in the rough nutshell.



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Last edited by sensei8 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 238
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8, thanks for the feedback. I have some follow-on questions.

Is Shugyo is interwoven in all your training?

Do you have special events, such as training in the elements or under harsh conditions?

Domo arigato.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6214
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
We train in Shugyo training; one of its staples. To us, Shugyo is training, and training in its raw unforgivable core, To us, Shugyo is ShuHaRi, and ShuHaRi is Shugyo; inseparable. In ShuHaRi, and with every element that is Shindokan, it has Shu (Protect), Ha (Break), Ri (Separation).

Each aspect of Shu Ha Ri has Shugyo deeply interwoven in it, and without, neither can exist effectively. Life is hard; so is training in the MA, or at least it should be. So, we've been taught to turn doubt into reality, therefore, while the overall training in the MA is hard at every level of ShuHaRI, Shugyo mindset prohibits complaining; suck it up...or get off the floor until the proper respect can be given to the floor. Shugyo never ends; it's an ongoing process that chips away as it molds.

The goal of Shugyo is for the student to gradually absorb knowledge about the discipline and this is to be done instinctive. No student gets any feedback; little, if any, and if any is provided, it's quite little. Students don't get it regarding their performance in the discipline. They don't get any direct input or feedback as to what and how to do things. They are expected to experience training, in which, they've just got to put the puzzle pieces together of their own.

Our Dai-Soke was quite fond of always reminding us all...SHUGYO...his way of telling us all to SUCK IT UP; quite complaining/whining because we're there to train.

Well, that's in the rough nutshell.



Maybe I'm not understanding properly, but to the bold type above (my emphasis) does that mean you never correct students? Or is this just a special one off training? I can't imagine never offering feedback, I'm very much at the other end of the spectrum and constantly adjusting and correcting.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14811
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Cobra wrote:
sensei8, thanks for the feedback. I have some follow-on questions.

Is Shugyo is interwoven in all your training?

Do you have special events, such as training in the elements or under harsh conditions?

Domo arigato.

Our training is most definitely interwoven with Shugyo across the board. As I stated before, Shindokan is Shugyo, and vice versa, nonetheless, we were taught that every aspect of Shindokan, no matter what it might be, is interwoven with Shugyo AS WELL, never that alone.

We've engaged in training in the elements purposefully, and not just because it was what's expected of us. Having the Pacific Ocean just over the hills, at Santa Monica Beach in Southern CA, we've spent countless amount of time in the surf training. I'm a staunch proponent of training in the water, whether it be in the ocean or in some swimming pool.

We've traveled up to Big Bear Lake, near San Bernardino, CA to train in the snow during December to March; only place it snows in sunny Southern CA. I'm far from being fond of snow unless it's on TV, in Snowglobe, or on a postcard. Nonetheless, we'd drive up there to appease Soke and/or Dai-Soke to endure snow training...this, to me, is Shugyo at its most harshness...SUCK IT UP...I suppose, I suppose.



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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14811
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
We train in Shugyo training; one of its staples. To us, Shugyo is training, and training in its raw unforgivable core, To us, Shugyo is ShuHaRi, and ShuHaRi is Shugyo; inseparable. In ShuHaRi, and with every element that is Shindokan, it has Shu (Protect), Ha (Break), Ri (Separation).

Each aspect of Shu Ha Ri has Shugyo deeply interwoven in it, and without, neither can exist effectively. Life is hard; so is training in the MA, or at least it should be. So, we've been taught to turn doubt into reality, therefore, while the overall training in the MA is hard at every level of ShuHaRI, Shugyo mindset prohibits complaining; suck it up...or get off the floor until the proper respect can be given to the floor. Shugyo never ends; it's an ongoing process that chips away as it molds.

The goal of Shugyo is for the student to gradually absorb knowledge about the discipline and this is to be done instinctive. No student gets any feedback; little, if any, and if any is provided, it's quite little. Students don't get it regarding their performance in the discipline. They don't get any direct input or feedback as to what and how to do things. They are expected to experience training, in which, they've just got to put the puzzle pieces together of their own.

Our Dai-Soke was quite fond of always reminding us all...SHUGYO...his way of telling us all to SUCK IT UP; quite complaining/whining because we're there to train.

Well, that's in the rough nutshell.



Maybe I'm not understanding properly, but to the bold type above (my emphasis) does that mean you never correct students? Or is this just a special one off training? I can't imagine never offering feedback, I'm very much at the other end of the spectrum and constantly adjusting and correcting.

To us, offering feedback isn't coddling them 24/7. They're trained to the Nth degree, and left for them to figure things out on their own. Without that being a constant presence, than Shu Ha Ri remains dormant...it mustn't ever become dormant whatsoever.

Of course we provide necessary feedback on a daily basis; to not provide any feedback promotes nothing of value. Students are always under the very close watchful eyes of instructors and the CI at all times. The AHA moment can only be so much brighter if students are allowed to put he puzzles back together, but not completely left alone to their own demise. To offer no feedback is irresponsible of the CI and instructors.

When I learned how to drive a car, I was trained, and then I was left alone to figure it out for myself. However, the Driver Ed. Instructor was sitting right there in the front seat right beside me during the whole Shu Ha Ri of learning how to drive a car, offering that constant feedback from the Driver Ed. Instructor whenever it was necessary. The Driver Ed. Instructor never held my hand while barking at me endlessly, that would've been irresponsible to have done so.

If one of my instructors is "in-the-face" of a student constantly, I'd have a sincere word with said instructor. The 3 T's of teaching is important...Teach...Task...Test. Can't provide that without any feedback. Give the student just enough to wet their whistle without overwhelming them...to much is just to much...keeping a very close eye on them...sit back and just wait...WHAM...there it is what you're both hoping for...the AHA moment!!

So, a student who's undergoing Shugyo is expected to learn by example over a long period of time; the CI and the instructors are responsible in providing that positive and effective example



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