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What Karate Style do you practice?
Shotokan (-Ryu)
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Goju-Ryu
75%
 75%  [ 3 ]
Shito-Ryu
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Wado-Ryu
25%
 25%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 4

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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 238
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naihanchi Shodan for Ryukyu Kempo.
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champ8309
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 May 2020
Posts: 13

Styles: Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scohen0300 wrote:
champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
I practice Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, so probably our Fukyugata Ichi. It was created by our founder, Shoshin Nagamine, and Chojun Miyagi. Our dojo performs the kata 100x on the day of Nagamine’s passing every year!


I see. The kata is very simple, yet a great way to master the main techniques. Thank you for sharing me this!


Of course! I believe Nagamine Sensei wanted something that was firmly rooted in the basics, yet still accessible to beginner students of all ages.


Yes. I have decided making 5 katas in a series, grouping in white-orange, green-purple, brown, shodan to godan, rokudan to jodan. So I will introduce basics too, but will build on those basics and make them advanced and more "applicable" in real life.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14817
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
I practice Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, so probably our Fukyugata Ichi. It was created by our founder, Shoshin Nagamine, and Chojun Miyagi. Our dojo performs the kata 100x on the day of Nagamine’s passing every year!


I see. The kata is very simple, yet a great way to master the main techniques. Thank you for sharing me this!


Of course! I believe Nagamine Sensei wanted something that was firmly rooted in the basics, yet still accessible to beginner students of all ages.


Yes. I have decided making 5 katas in a series, grouping in white-orange, green-purple, brown, shodan to godan, rokudan to jodan. So I will introduce basics too, but will build on those basics and make them advanced and more "applicable" in real life.

Respectfully, please forgive me my question, I mean no disrespect whatsoever...

How can you effectively create Kata/Etc. above your knowledge and experience??

Shodan?? Perhaps, due to you being a 3rd Kyu.

Nidan?? That would be a stretch.

Sandan?? Highly improbable because at this rank most CI's are just now opening their own dojo. Sandan takes about 3+ years minimum of knowledge and experience from Shodan to earn.

Yondan - Godan?? These ranks require 15+ years minimum of knowledge and experience to earn from Sandan.

Rokudan - Hachidan?? These ranks require 20+ years minimum of knowledge and experience to earn from Godan.

Kudan - Judan?? These ranks require a lifetime of knowledge and experience to earn; just about 50+ years.

Let's completely forget about rank; the necessary knowledge and experience must be achieved. Rank is meaningless, but knowledge and experience is everything.

Imho.



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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 412
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking further on the original question:

Shotokan-Ryu: One could argue Sochin is a distinct and representative kata of Shotokan. It is the kata which introduces and has the highest use of Shotokan's distinct Fudodachi, a stance I have yet to see in another branch of the Karate tree. As with Kanku Dai, Shotokan's version of Sochin is distinct to it. Fudodachi is also used as a transitional stance in several advanced Shotokan katas.

Wado-Ryu: Arguably, Chinto: another former shi-tei Kata, but again one of the nine core kata of Wado-Ryu that Ohtsuka taught. As we Seisan, he made a number of subtle but important changes. Chinto is also a kata which can be interpreted as having many sophisticated techniques to be used against sophisticated martial arts: rare amongst the generally pragmatic kata of Okinawa, and allows one to explore the Koryu Jujutsu ideas inherent in Wado-Ryu with the Bunkai.


Now, with regards to the plans you have outlined, I must echo Sensei8's sentiment there regarding having the experience to create meaningful kata. There is a reason I retain the Shorin-Ryu kata at the heart of my approach: it is a body of knowledge I cannot hope to replicate in my single, and at this point, comparatively short life. I have developed two kata, as mentioned prior, but I have the experiences that informed my design:

I have been a Semi-Professional Kick-Boxer, and have Shoot-Fighting experience. I also worked as a Nightclub door security man, and have experience dealing with physical confrontation in the context of civilian self-defence. I am a Brown Belt in Judo and a Technical Blue-Belt in BJJ. That is by no way an elite level of grappling experience and knowledge, but I have experience in grappling and sufficient knowledge to inform me what is an informed idea at grappling range versus what is ignorant. With this knowledge, I was able to create my two kata, but I did not rely on my knowledge alone. I studied how others had created their Kata, and I used that to refine my ideas. Going back to a point I made before: my two kata fulfil needs my other kata do not. If I had forms, or could find forms, that did the job I would use other forms. The advantage of using forms others use is that it widens the knowledge base. The number of people studying, researching, and sharing their discoveries about the form is naturally larger than one person working on a kata they alone know. It is why my kata designs borrow ideas from other forms I know people are working on: so I can borrow from that knowledge base.

Now, none of this is to dissuade you from your ambitions but to hopefully place the advice I am giving in context. Figure out what you already have kata for, as there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Contextualise what you already know about fighting, what does your experience, with reflection, reveal to you to be important factors in physical combat. Research physical violence and find out what are high percentile means of engagement, and techniques that appear time after time. Finally, research how others have transferred their ideas regarding fighting to the movements of kata.

From the world of Okinawan Karate, there is Kanshiwa from Uechi-Ryu as devised by Uechi Kanei. Most importantly, its creator also created a series of applications fully disclosing what the movements of the kata mean.

Ed Parker famously created the Technique Forms, Short Form 3 and Long Forms 3-6, of American Kenpo from the techniques of Kenpo Karate. He mapped what techniques went into the forms in his works, and it is very easy to find sources for the techniques. The practicality of said techniques is debatable, but they are mostly rationale.

The Kata of Ashihara Kaikan are the invention of Ashihara Hideyuki. Thankfully, as with Kanshiwa, Ashihara left in-depth explanations of his kata and their application. A prodigal talent in Knock-Down Karate, who trained several champions, the kata are grounded in the very sensible concept of Sabaki and are very applicable.

The Kata of Nippon Kempo mostly have Futari, or two-man versions, and are based on knowledge gained from the competitive Bogu Free-Fighting Nippon Kempo is famed for. The two-man versions reveal the intent and purpose of the movements effectively.

Ajarn Marco De Cesaris has done significant work on the Mae Mai of Muay Thai, and their relationship to Muay Boran. Personally, I do find his conclusions debatable, from a historic perspective, however, the movement drills he has developed are sound. More importantly, grounded in the tested and practical techniques of Muay Thai.

A video posted by Jesse Enkamp a few days ago is also very relevant to this discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDjhOyiRs34

I would advise looking at the process the Enkamp brothers used in your own: application first, movement second.

Overall, I would advise taking a broad look of the kata that are out there, and you might discover what you want already exists. Yet if you do persevere, I will just give some advice based on my own experience, and pitfalls I have witnessed in others attempts at Kata development:

- Blocking Forms: Do not create these. There is no point to them. A receiving technique is nothing without something to conclude the conflict. Practice receiving techniques as Kihon-Waza.

- Tension Forms: Forms which are slow and tense on a superficial level like Sanchin. They serve no purpose, and if one wants as form like Sanchin: use Sanchin. It is a simple enough kata, however, there is a depth to Sanchin practice. If one does not know Sanchin back to front, then do not do Sanchin based practice. Uninformed Sanchin practice is at best wasteful, and at its worst bad for your health.

- Standing and waving arms: You do not stand still in a fight thus do not do so in Kata. Every movement of the feet should correlate with the movement of the arms, and vice versa. There are exceptions to this principle in traditional kata, but they are demonstrable through the application of the motion. More often than not, just standing and waving the arms is an empty exercise.

- Kicking or striking Kata: As with blocking forms, these do not serve a useful purposeful. Basic techniques are best practised as basic techniques, or against pads and partners, not through kata. If you wish to create kata with modern kicks, make sure you represent setups and combinations. If you want a kata to focus on attacks, make sure the principles of effective attacking a represented: Feints, cutting the angles and so forth.

- Hand positions: Closed fist, Palm-Heel, knife hand, or a grasping hand. Anything else is artistic licence. Do not get taken in by Animal forms or funky Kempo style hand shapes. They look interesting but unless you have a specific reason to use a specific shape: it is superfluous.

- Define what is for exercise, and what is for application: There is no harm in adding movements in that are challenging for the purpose of your own development, or students. Just make sure such movements are an extension of an application, and you clarify what is a challenging movement for the sake of challenge, and what is intended as a pragmatic defence. This is a barrier with analysing the old kata, and it is a pitfall I have seen in a lot of Modern Forms: difficult movement because it looks good in competition, not because it serves a training purpose.

Anyway, hope those are sources are of use to you, and the advice to. Good luck, and Good Fortune.

Edit:

A couple of other things to consider: the theoretical base you are working on. In devising my kata I used two theories. The Habitual Acts of Personal Violence as devised by Patrick McCarthy, and the Kaisai no Genri. These helped ground my designs in reality, but also in the tradition of kata developers before me.

For the combat sport aspects inherent in the kata of my making, I also looked to combat sports statistics to determine what high percentile techniques I needed to accommodate. There are police reports, and so forth, where one can do the same for self-defence.
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champ8309
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 May 2020
Posts: 13

Styles: Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
I practice Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, so probably our Fukyugata Ichi. It was created by our founder, Shoshin Nagamine, and Chojun Miyagi. Our dojo performs the kata 100x on the day of Nagamine’s passing every year!


I see. The kata is very simple, yet a great way to master the main techniques. Thank you for sharing me this!


Of course! I believe Nagamine Sensei wanted something that was firmly rooted in the basics, yet still accessible to beginner students of all ages.


Yes. I have decided making 5 katas in a series, grouping in white-orange, green-purple, brown, shodan to godan, rokudan to jodan. So I will introduce basics too, but will build on those basics and make them advanced and more "applicable" in real life.

Respectfully, please forgive me my question, I mean no disrespect whatsoever...

How can you effectively create Kata/Etc. above your knowledge and experience??

Shodan?? Perhaps, due to you being a 3rd Kyu.

Nidan?? That would be a stretch.

Sandan?? Highly improbable because at this rank most CI's are just now opening their own dojo. Sandan takes about 3+ years minimum of knowledge and experience from Shodan to earn.

Yondan - Godan?? These ranks require 15+ years minimum of knowledge and experience to earn from Sandan.

Rokudan - Hachidan?? These ranks require 20+ years minimum of knowledge and experience to earn from Godan.

Kudan - Judan?? These ranks require a lifetime of knowledge and experience to earn; just about 50+ years.

Let's completely forget about rank; the necessary knowledge and experience must be achieved. Rank is meaningless, but knowledge and experience is everything.

Imho.




Sensei, with all due respect, What I meant was that the 5 katas are suppoesed to be grouped like that, because I will be adding techniques, that are rarely used in modern karate, thus it is better performed by someone, who has knowledge and experience. It is only meant a sugestion and it was never forced to be like that. In September, I will be starting with official karate training again. Based on our grading system and my Godan Sensei, who once won a World Championship, I will be putting more and more techniques that require skill, talent and wit. Of course I will never be a Judan, but like I said: It was only a suggestion and only a vision of a child. The main point is to gradually introduce practitioners to a new side of Karate. Starting of with closed hands, than open hands, followed by sweeps, grapples and so on. My apologies for saying something like that before.
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champ8309
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 May 2020
Posts: 13

Styles: Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
Thinking further on the original question:

Shotokan-Ryu: One could argue Sochin is a distinct and representative kata of Shotokan. It is the kata which introduces and has the highest use of Shotokan's distinct Fudodachi, a stance I have yet to see in another branch of the Karate tree. As with Kanku Dai, Shotokan's version of Sochin is distinct to it. Fudodachi is also used as a transitional stance in several advanced Shotokan katas.

Wado-Ryu: Arguably, Chinto: another former shi-tei Kata, but again one of the nine core kata of Wado-Ryu that Ohtsuka taught. As we Seisan, he made a number of subtle but important changes. Chinto is also a kata which can be interpreted as having many sophisticated techniques to be used against sophisticated martial arts: rare amongst the generally pragmatic kata of Okinawa, and allows one to explore the Koryu Jujutsu ideas inherent in Wado-Ryu with the Bunkai.


Now, with regards to the plans you have outlined, I must echo Sensei8's sentiment there regarding having the experience to create meaningful kata. There is a reason I retain the Shorin-Ryu kata at the heart of my approach: it is a body of knowledge I cannot hope to replicate in my single, and at this point, comparatively short life. I have developed two kata, as mentioned prior, but I have the experiences that informed my design:

I have been a Semi-Professional Kick-Boxer, and have Shoot-Fighting experience. I also worked as a Nightclub door security man, and have experience dealing with physical confrontation in the context of civilian self-defence. I am a Brown Belt in Judo and a Technical Blue-Belt in BJJ. That is by no way an elite level of grappling experience and knowledge, but I have experience in grappling and sufficient knowledge to inform me what is an informed idea at grappling range versus what is ignorant. With this knowledge, I was able to create my two kata, but I did not rely on my knowledge alone. I studied how others had created their Kata, and I used that to refine my ideas. Going back to a point I made before: my two kata fulfil needs my other kata do not. If I had forms, or could find forms, that did the job I would use other forms. The advantage of using forms others use is that it widens the knowledge base. The number of people studying, researching, and sharing their discoveries about the form is naturally larger than one person working on a kata they alone know. It is why my kata designs borrow ideas from other forms I know people are working on: so I can borrow from that knowledge base.

Now, none of this is to dissuade you from your ambitions but to hopefully place the advice I am giving in context. Figure out what you already have kata for, as there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Contextualise what you already know about fighting, what does your experience, with reflection, reveal to you to be important factors in physical combat. Research physical violence and find out what are high percentile means of engagement, and techniques that appear time after time. Finally, research how others have transferred their ideas regarding fighting to the movements of kata.

From the world of Okinawan Karate, there is Kanshiwa from Uechi-Ryu as devised by Uechi Kanei. Most importantly, its creator also created a series of applications fully disclosing what the movements of the kata mean.

Ed Parker famously created the Technique Forms, Short Form 3 and Long Forms 3-6, of American Kenpo from the techniques of Kenpo Karate. He mapped what techniques went into the forms in his works, and it is very easy to find sources for the techniques. The practicality of said techniques is debatable, but they are mostly rationale.

The Kata of Ashihara Kaikan are the invention of Ashihara Hideyuki. Thankfully, as with Kanshiwa, Ashihara left in-depth explanations of his kata and their application. A prodigal talent in Knock-Down Karate, who trained several champions, the kata are grounded in the very sensible concept of Sabaki and are very applicable.

The Kata of Nippon Kempo mostly have Futari, or two-man versions, and are based on knowledge gained from the competitive Bogu Free-Fighting Nippon Kempo is famed for. The two-man versions reveal the intent and purpose of the movements effectively.

Ajarn Marco De Cesaris has done significant work on the Mae Mai of Muay Thai, and their relationship to Muay Boran. Personally, I do find his conclusions debatable, from a historic perspective, however, the movement drills he has developed are sound. More importantly, grounded in the tested and practical techniques of Muay Thai.

A video posted by Jesse Enkamp a few days ago is also very relevant to this discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDjhOyiRs34

I would advise looking at the process the Enkamp brothers used in your own: application first, movement second.

Overall, I would advise taking a broad look of the kata that are out there, and you might discover what you want already exists. Yet if you do persevere, I will just give some advice based on my own experience, and pitfalls I have witnessed in others attempts at Kata development:

- Blocking Forms: Do not create these. There is no point to them. A receiving technique is nothing without something to conclude the conflict. Practice receiving techniques as Kihon-Waza.

- Tension Forms: Forms which are slow and tense on a superficial level like Sanchin. They serve no purpose, and if one wants as form like Sanchin: use Sanchin. It is a simple enough kata, however, there is a depth to Sanchin practice. If one does not know Sanchin back to front, then do not do Sanchin based practice. Uninformed Sanchin practice is at best wasteful, and at its worst bad for your health.

- Standing and waving arms: You do not stand still in a fight thus do not do so in Kata. Every movement of the feet should correlate with the movement of the arms, and vice versa. There are exceptions to this principle in traditional kata, but they are demonstrable through the application of the motion. More often than not, just standing and waving the arms is an empty exercise.

- Kicking or striking Kata: As with blocking forms, these do not serve a useful purposeful. Basic techniques are best practised as basic techniques, or against pads and partners, not through kata. If you wish to create kata with modern kicks, make sure you represent setups and combinations. If you want a kata to focus on attacks, make sure the principles of effective attacking a represented: Feints, cutting the angles and so forth.

- Hand positions: Closed fist, Palm-Heel, knife hand, or a grasping hand. Anything else is artistic licence. Do not get taken in by Animal forms or funky Kempo style hand shapes. They look interesting but unless you have a specific reason to use a specific shape: it is superfluous.

- Define what is for exercise, and what is for application: There is no harm in adding movements in that are challenging for the purpose of your own development, or students. Just make sure such movements are an extension of an application, and you clarify what is a challenging movement for the sake of challenge, and what is intended as a pragmatic defence. This is a barrier with analysing the old kata, and it is a pitfall I have seen in a lot of Modern Forms: difficult movement because it looks good in competition, not because it serves a training purpose.

Anyway, hope those are sources are of use to you, and the advice to. Good luck, and Good Fortune.

Edit:

A couple of other things to consider: the theoretical base you are working on. In devising my kata I used two theories. The Habitual Acts of Personal Violence as devised by Patrick McCarthy, and the Kaisai no Genri. These helped ground my designs in reality, but also in the tradition of kata developers before me.

For the combat sport aspects inherent in the kata of my making, I also looked to combat sports statistics to determine what high percentile techniques I needed to accommodate. There are police reports, and so forth, where one can do the same for self-defence.


I see. This information is quite useful. I have seen Jesse Enkamp's Video and the video linked to it. Those videos were the ones that made me want to do this. I will make good use of this information. Thank you.
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1257
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naihanchi Shodan, Tensho and Happoren
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14817
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ8309 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
champ8309 wrote:
scohen0300 wrote:
I practice Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, so probably our Fukyugata Ichi. It was created by our founder, Shoshin Nagamine, and Chojun Miyagi. Our dojo performs the kata 100x on the day of Nagamine’s passing every year!


I see. The kata is very simple, yet a great way to master the main techniques. Thank you for sharing me this!


Of course! I believe Nagamine Sensei wanted something that was firmly rooted in the basics, yet still accessible to beginner students of all ages.


Yes. I have decided making 5 katas in a series, grouping in white-orange, green-purple, brown, shodan to godan, rokudan to jodan. So I will introduce basics too, but will build on those basics and make them advanced and more "applicable" in real life.

Respectfully, please forgive me my question, I mean no disrespect whatsoever...

How can you effectively create Kata/Etc. above your knowledge and experience??

Shodan?? Perhaps, due to you being a 3rd Kyu.

Nidan?? That would be a stretch.

Sandan?? Highly improbable because at this rank most CI's are just now opening their own dojo. Sandan takes about 3+ years minimum of knowledge and experience from Shodan to earn.

Yondan - Godan?? These ranks require 15+ years minimum of knowledge and experience to earn from Sandan.

Rokudan - Hachidan?? These ranks require 20+ years minimum of knowledge and experience to earn from Godan.

Kudan - Judan?? These ranks require a lifetime of knowledge and experience to earn; just about 50+ years.

Let's completely forget about rank; the necessary knowledge and experience must be achieved. Rank is meaningless, but knowledge and experience is everything.

Imho.




Sensei, with all due respect, What I meant was that the 5 katas are suppoesed to be grouped like that, because I will be adding techniques, that are rarely used in modern karate, thus it is better performed by someone, who has knowledge and experience. It is only meant a sugestion and it was never forced to be like that. In September, I will be starting with official karate training again. Based on our grading system and my Godan Sensei, who once won a World Championship, I will be putting more and more techniques that require skill, talent and wit. Of course I will never be a Judan, but like I said: It was only a suggestion and only a vision of a child. The main point is to gradually introduce practitioners to a new side of Karate. Starting of with closed hands, than open hands, followed by sweeps, grapples and so on. My apologies for saying something like that before.

So, what your vision/dream is going to be a work in progress, which is what everyone's MA journey is...a work in progress. I never meant to be critical of you and your MA journey, of which I'd never do to anyone. My Kudan was earned through the trials and tribulations of my MA journey; it too was a work in progress.

I deeply respect your vision/dream, and I hope it comes to fruition through your own knowledge and experience through your MA journey. I did think that you were going to create based on just your current experience and knowledge up to Judan, which is doable, however, not for a practitioner with a 3rd Kyu.

Lest I forget that Bruce Lee created JKD, and in his complete totality, he only had amassed only 19 years of knowledge and experience before he passed away. Albeit, JKD curriculum is far and away from the norms of many MA styles, especially Karate.

Keep your vision/dream alive because no one, including me, has the right to dictate any practitioners MA journey. Train hard...train well!!




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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14817
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.A.L wrote:
Naihanchi Shodan, Tensho and Happoren

Great core; especially Happoren, one of my favorite.



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champ8309
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 May 2020
Posts: 13

Styles: Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.A.L wrote:
Naihanchi Shodan, Tensho and Happoren


Thank you sir for these nice kata suggestions.
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