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KarateKen
Green Belt
Joined: 12 Nov 2021
Posts: 420
Location: Dojo
Styles: Karate
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 Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 1:35 am Post subject: Size vs Skill |
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I know this has a lot of variables and might be impossible to answer, but how much training would a person need to overcome an attacker who is larger than they are?
Person A is 5'9" tall 165 pounds, a second-degree black belt with 8 years of training and they get attacked by person B who is 6'3" 220 pounds with zero training, who would have the advantage? |
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 896
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:32 am Post subject: |
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unfortunately this is nigh on impossible to answer accurately. All i will say is weight classes exist for a reason and you need a significant disparity in skill to counteract this eg i think most boxing fans would concur that Floyd Mayweather Jnr is a significantly more skilled boxer than Anthony Joshua but i doubt Mayweather would stand a chance if they ever fought.
You mention 8 years of training but this could be a 1hr session twice a week at a mediocre academy or every day at a world class school. |
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Fat Cobra
Green Belt
Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 372
Location: Watertown, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:16 am Post subject: |
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I agree with DarthPenguin--there are a lot of variables in this scenario.
However, if you are talking about a purely self defense scenario, I think size has great potential to triumph over skill, with all other things being equal. That being said, things should not be equal. If someone is in a pure self defense scenario they should not fight fair...do not fight someone much larger than you with your bare hands, use a weapon. That can be the great equalizer, if you are skilled with the weapon.
_________________
Yondan in Ryukyu Kempo
Head of the Shubu Kan Dojo in Carthage, NY
(United Ryukyu Kempo Alliance) |
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KarateKen
Green Belt
Joined: 12 Nov 2021
Posts: 420
Location: Dojo
Styles: Karate
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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There is a social media personality who is a body builder and does a podcast where he talks to professional fighters and sometimes he askes the fighter "do you think you could beat me" often times the fighters are much smaller. The podcaster feels he would win because of his size and muscle, the fighters believe they would win because of their years of training. Just got me wondering how much skill would be needed to overcome someone much bigger and stronger. There is probably no universal answer, but I would image that in some cases skill would win, in others it would not.
That being said I was once threatened and then pushed by a coworker who had at least 40 pounds one me, and one kick to the nuts put a stop to that. |
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 896
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| KarateKen wrote: |
There is a social media personality who is a body builder and does a podcast where he talks to professional fighters and sometimes he askes the fighter "do you think you could beat me" often times the fighters are much smaller. The podcaster feels he would win because of his size and muscle, the fighters believe they would win because of their years of training. Just got me wondering how much skill would be needed to overcome someone much bigger and stronger. There is probably no universal answer, but I would image that in some cases skill would win, in others it would not.
That being said I was once threatened and then pushed by a coworker who had at least 40 pounds one me, and one kick to the nuts put a stop to that. |
It is always a tough one tbh. As a simple example i am roughly the size of the larger individual in your example (i'm 6'4" and about 225lbs in American units).
My background was mainly in striking styles until i added in bjj and i always noticed the following : whenever i went to a new striking style i could usually always hold my own sparring unless someone was a much higher level than me (i mean multiple dans etc) if i was a lot bigger than them, however, when i went to bjj for the first time it was totally different (and one of the main reasons i took it up). Rolled with a experienced white belt (got his blue soon after) who was about 5'6 and maybe 130-140lbs and got absolutely destroyed. I was nigh on helpless tbh. This may just be making the point again about skill differences though.
There is a difference between being big and knowing how to use your size effectively.
I think there is a clip somewhere of Conor McGregor sparring Hafthor Bjornsson and handling him pretty easily due to the skill disparity. Also look at Marius Pudzianovski (sp) the former multiple time WSM and his foray into mma. He had some prior martial arts training and he will have always been the biggest and strongest person in all of his fights but that didn't mean he won them all |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with all of the above. There are so many factors to take into consideration that it's impossible to answer this question.
Ideally, I would say to train in something, and also work on getting bigger and stronger yourself while you train, to help even out the strength curve. Nothing you can do about getting taller, but everyone can get stronger.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 896
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I agree with all of the above. There are so many factors to take into consideration that it's impossible to answer this question.
Ideally, I would say to train in something, and also work on getting bigger and stronger yourself while you train, to help even out the strength curve. Nothing you can do about getting taller, but everyone can get stronger. |
100% agree here. Tbh the size/weight is more important than the height. someone equally skilled, my height but decent amount lighter i usually feel i can 'bully' a little when sparring; someone equally skilled, shorter but same or greater weight usually feels a LOT harder (especially if they can take a hit) - it's why they have weight classes and not height classes |
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KarateKen
Green Belt
Joined: 12 Nov 2021
Posts: 420
Location: Dojo
Styles: Karate
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| DarthPenguin wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I agree with all of the above. There are so many factors to take into consideration that it's impossible to answer this question.
Ideally, I would say to train in something, and also work on getting bigger and stronger yourself while you train, to help even out the strength curve. Nothing you can do about getting taller, but everyone can get stronger. |
100% agree here. Tbh the size/weight is more important than the height. someone equally skilled, my height but decent amount lighter i usually feel i can 'bully' a little when sparring; someone equally skilled, shorter but same or greater weight usually feels a LOT harder (especially if they can take a hit) - it's why they have weight classes and not height classes |
Would you say then that reach advantages are overrated?
Not challenging your opinion, just asking. |
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DarthPenguin
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 896
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| KarateKen wrote: |
| DarthPenguin wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I agree with all of the above. There are so many factors to take into consideration that it's impossible to answer this question.
Ideally, I would say to train in something, and also work on getting bigger and stronger yourself while you train, to help even out the strength curve. Nothing you can do about getting taller, but everyone can get stronger. |
100% agree here. Tbh the size/weight is more important than the height. someone equally skilled, my height but decent amount lighter i usually feel i can 'bully' a little when sparring; someone equally skilled, shorter but same or greater weight usually feels a LOT harder (especially if they can take a hit) - it's why they have weight classes and not height classes |
Would you say then that reach advantages are overrated?
Not challenging your opinion, just asking. |
For me, personally, i find that weight is more important than reach, though i would still say that reach is important. I would describe it as a bunch of different factors that can help. If someone is equally skilled and the same weight then reach does help.
I think Mike Tyson illustrates the point quite well - when he was at his peak he covered up with a fantastic defence and got into close range before exploding. His defence was good enough and he was strong enough taking hits that he could get to the point when reach became a disadvantage.
Reach plus size is the best (obviously) like Lennox Lewis or Wlad Klitschko, neither of whom had a great chin but were able to use their reaches and sheer size to have fantastic success.
I would also say that reach helps more if it is full contact. In semi contact people can march through your strike as they don't get hurt (assuming it's continuous) and get into a range where you are less effective. Full contact you can try and hurt them before they get into their range.
I think what it actually comes down to is there are a huge amount of factors at play and everything is individualised - apologies if the above is a bit rambling! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| KarateKen wrote: |
| DarthPenguin wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I agree with all of the above. There are so many factors to take into consideration that it's impossible to answer this question.
Ideally, I would say to train in something, and also work on getting bigger and stronger yourself while you train, to help even out the strength curve. Nothing you can do about getting taller, but everyone can get stronger. |
100% agree here. Tbh the size/weight is more important than the height. someone equally skilled, my height but decent amount lighter i usually feel i can 'bully' a little when sparring; someone equally skilled, shorter but same or greater weight usually feels a LOT harder (especially if they can take a hit) - it's why they have weight classes and not height classes |
Would you say then that reach advantages are overrated?
Not challenging your opinion, just asking. |
I think reach can be advantageous, but again, it can be situational. Someone who is 6'3" with long arms and legs but only weighs 130 lbs....typically, I am not going to worry as much about their reach. I'll take a few tags to get inside that. Now, if that person is 6'3" and 230 lbs, then that'll be a different story, even though I would still have weight on them.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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on the post.
