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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:11 pm Post subject: Something I feel needs to be said... |
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Ok this is Ancient history and im sorry if no one cares...but there has been some talk about this Rescently and I felt like saying something.
This is Regarding Royce Gracie and the first Ultimate Fighting Championships.
There has been some talk about how Royce didint Face Quality opponets..the gracies were the greates fighters of the time, etc,etc
Royce Was picked To represent his Family because he was "the kid brother" Royce was not a professional fighter and he was definetly not as good as some of his older brothers.
This is Why he was chosen.
Royce weight in at 170 pounds as the lightest man in the tournament and won it with ease.
He beat A boxer named Art jimmerson(195 pounds) who was ranked around 15th in the world i belive at the time.
He Beat Ken Shamrock Who was had already been fighting in Pancrase in Japan..Shamrock Outweight him by 50+ pounds and despite his solid grappling knowladge was Choked out in 45 seconds.
He then Choked out a 215 pound K-1 level kickboxer name Gerard Gordeau
He did all of this in one night and people can still say he didint face quality opponets.
This Streak continued thru the next UFC's with him beating men of all sizes shaped and forms.
Royce Gracie was ahead of his Time...If someone showes me a 170 pound fighter in 1993 that could have beat him then i would eat my words.
Royce even publically challenged mike Tyson but it never happend.
Once again im sorry for the rant ...I just feel sometimes people try and Downplay what Royce did 10 years ago. |
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G95champ
Black Belt
Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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No need to be sorry thats all ture.
Royce is by no means the best Gracie as he has stated many times he is just the one everyone knows because of the UFC's.
Quality yes they guys he faced were good but no one was at his leval. By UFC III Kimo a avg. striker at best gave him a beating but lost. The in IV or V he and Shamrock fought to a draw I think in a Superfight.
Shamrock was the best MMA he fought in the UFC's no question. But he never fought a GOOD striker. #15 ranked boxer??? come on if I recall the dude even wore boxing gloves and had no clue what was going on in when he got taken down. As someone stated before Kieth Hackney was the only real striker in the early UFC's.
Royce did beat the one Japan Karate guy but if I recall that was his best fight in the first one.
As far as the Tyson challenge its like this. It was a no win situation for Tyson at the time. Tyson was the most feared and respected boxer in 93-95. If Tyson accepted and won so what he beat a 170lbs Brazilian who was not the best fighter in his family. If Tyson it would have killed him. Imagin the MOST Dangerous Man in the world as he was calling himself Mike Tyson 230lbs loosing to a 170lbs Brazilian who was not the best fighter in his family. Tyson is not a smart guy but not fighting Royce was the smartest thing he ever done. Win or lose. On the flip side it was a win win for Royce because he was a no name and he would have made millons in the fight.
The Gracies are the cream of the crop no question about it but a Gracie in a boxing match under boxing rules is like a boxer in the UFC fighting UFC rules.
_________________
(General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." |
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SupaNinjaz
Yellow Belt
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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TJS has stated facts and I agree with his post 100%, but he did miss one very important and extremely skilled fighter that Royce Gracie beat, Minoki Ichihara in UFC 2.
Minoki Ichihara at the time was a 2nd Dan Black Belt in Daito Juku Karate, with over 60 wins in bare knuckle, full contact karate matches, and arguable one of the toughest Karateka's in the world at the time and yet still lost to Royce in 11min. R1.
Royce Gracie deserves nothing but respect! |
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G95champ
Black Belt
Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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That was the point I just made that the best fight he had was with Ichihara I did not know his name. But he is a TMA and fact is he gave him a respectful fight even he was in the Gracie Guard the entire time.
_________________
(General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." |
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SupaNinjaz
Yellow Belt
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| umm... actually it was a sad fight on Minoki Ichihara part. Royce had the mount and cross body the entire fight, never once was Ichihara in the guard. |
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G95champ
Black Belt
Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well ok lol its been a while since I watched it but I do recall him lasting much longer than most. He lost ot an armbar right.
_________________
(General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." |
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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ok make a few comments
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| By UFC III Kimo a avg. striker at best gave him a beating but lost |
True Kimo put up a hell of a fight...Kimo also outweighed him by about 100 pounds...that would be like me fighting a 10 year old.
Shamrock fought not to loose imo...he went in that fight and layed on top of and controled Royce..he also had a 50und weight advantage.
You say he never fought Any great strikers..but
-Gerard Gordeau was a world class Muay Thai/Savate champion who showed alot of skill
-Jimmerson may have been Ranked 15 or so but in the pro world thats not bad..he also competed in kickboxing at one time i belive.
-Keith Hackney was a vicious hitter
-Pat Smith was a Hard hitting kickboxer Who Won the Sabaki Challenge in 89 and had an extremly good record..not to mention he knew some grappling.
- Ichihara as other said was a well respected japanese Karateka.
All of these Guys were up to par in their game...but youur right none of them were up to par with Royce in a No holds barred fight.
I honestly do not belive there were any strikers at that time who could have avoided being caught in something...no one had the grapling knowladge
| Quote: |
| but a Gracie in a boxing match under boxing rules is like a boxer in the UFC fighting UFC rules. |
I dont think thats a fair comparison..At the Time The UFC basically had no rules..Royce would be limited under boxing rules...a boxer can do 100% of what he knows in UFC..uncluding "dirty boxing"
About Tyson I agree 100%..he had nothing to gain and everythign to loose..
But i was using it as more of a point that Roce was not afraid of anyone at the time and proabably would have submitted tyson. |
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G95champ
Black Belt
Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 3116
Location: Gilbert WV, USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate (FSKA)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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No doubt Tyson did not want anything to do with Royce.
As far as the weight thing goes that is where a striker has some advantage. Its eaiser for a small man to KO a big guy staning up than it is for a small guy to work a big guy on the gound IMO.
Royve never fought Smith did he??? IMO he was not that good anyhow. But your right he was a big time kciker.
Again Hackney was the only true TMA strike to be in the UFC IMO.
_________________
(General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." |
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shotokanwarrior
Green Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2003
Posts: 363
Location: calif
Styles: Self Defense
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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UFC 1 was a bunch of misfits except for maybe ken shamrock. Art jimmerson had a boxing glove strapped to his lead hand and tapped out as soon an gracie mounted him. ken shamrock was not choked out he tapped when he felt gracies arm go around his neck. Gerard Gordeau had a swollen broken hand for his fight with gracie. I still do not understand why these people like to punch to the back of the head and bust their hands all up.
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Where Art ends, nature begins. |
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| shotokanwarrior wrote: |
| UFC 1 was a bunch of misfits except for maybe ken shamrock. Art jimmerson had a boxing glove strapped to his lead hand and tapped out as soon an gracie mounted him. ken shamrock was not choked out he tapped when he felt gracies arm go around his neck. Gerard Gordeau had a swollen broken hand for his fight with gracie. I still do not understand why these people like to punch to the back of the head and bust their hands all up. |
| Quote: |
| UFC 1 was a bunch of misfits |
Kevin Rosier was a multi time Superheavweight kickboxing Champion
Gerard as said was a World class MT/Savate fighter..who even fought in K-1
Pat Smith was a full contact Bare knucle karate champion who had croos trained in several style
Shamrock was obviously the real deal.
any one of those Misfits could send you to the emergency room in under 30 seconds most likely.
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| ken shamrock was not choked out he tapped when he felt gracies arm go around his neck |
no he tapped when he felt the blood flow to his brain stop...it's called a choke...you tap so you dont loose consciousness.
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| Royve never fought Smith did he??? |
Yep..Smith Tapped out becuase Royce was raining down punches to his Head while he had his arms trapped 
He wasant a Great UFC fighter but he was up there in Kickboxing..Like I said he won the Sabaki Challenge at one point. |
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