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Chunmonchek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 177

Styles: Goju

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Sport Is OK! Reply with quote

lowereastside wrote:
My 2 cents - sport is ok - but must be put in perspective. You have to separate the Art from Sport. When I practiced Karate in the 60's - it was mayham - very tough - it was survival - however the sparring was nothing like the katas we were doing - It was boxing hands with kicks and sweeps. At tournaments without the patch on the uniform you could not tell one style from another - so 2 much of the sport takes away from the original purpose.


This.

I'm ok with Sport Martial Arts, as long as there is full disclosure of what it is...sport... a competition based derivitive of the foundation martial art. Obviously, it has its place, based on its popularity.

For me, I'm long past the time of my "sporting days".

I remember when I first started in 72/73. Kata was taught to us for promotion purposes... but other than that, it was all about free-fighting...but that was the focus of Nisei Goju back then.

Chris
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andym
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 487

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit I was very negative towards the sporting use of the martial arts, and it has had a negative impact on them. Just look what the Olympics have do to Judo ! Note I did compete in a small way in the 1980's and early 1990's. But now I feel there are more damaging influences on the martial arts , namely - Action Movies !
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maisweh
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 83


PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:55 am    Post subject: tournaments Reply with quote

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2012/01/06/open-karate-tournament-success/

^^^ this

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2008/03/09/facing-a-harsh-reality-sparring-measures-skill-you-just-arent-as-good-as-you-thought/

and this ^^^^^^
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AdamKralic
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Posts: 313
Location: Chicagoland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: tournaments Reply with quote

maisweh wrote:
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2012/01/06/open-karate-tournament-success/

^^^ this

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2008/03/09/facing-a-harsh-reality-sparring-measures-skill-you-just-arent-as-good-as-you-thought/

and this ^^^^^^


Great links. I especially liked the 2nd one. I was on another (will remain unnamed) karate forum earlier. Most of the people there were putting down sparring tournaments as useless...the fighters without real skill. They were being rude and arrogant in equal measures. A few admitted defeat in such tournaments due to unrealistic rules and unrealistic techniques allowed/encouraged...most just stuck with ___________ and ___________ would get them killed in MY dojo.

Really? What proof do you have that they cannot do the things that you can do? The only established fact is that they can fight under a sparring tourney set of rules with more efficiency than you. So far...imo they are winning the "skills" war. They are faster than you. They see openings and can hit them...whereas you cannot.

Speed and reaction time are CRUCIAL to every style ever created.
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maisweh
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 83


PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly.
the part where he says if it were a real fight i wouldnt ax kick you in the head either, but if i can kick you in the head faster than you can kick me, i will win a race to the knees also. trophies blah blah glorification blah blah. i dont even take trophies home, unless its cool awards like jackets or rings or belts, i just like compeition. like you said, most people who dont like competition generally dont do well in them
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly i'm okay with competition. Competition is a good thing. I am completely fine with being limited to a subset of valid techniques to fit in a competitive ruleset.

What annoys me is when I see people devoting large amounts of training time in an attempt to master invalid techniques. Learning how to turn your back to an opponent faster as a main defense is an invalid technique. Learning how to flick a foil in order to tap someone on the back of the head is an invalid technique. Spending hours and hours on mastering invalid technique is a complete mockery of the art that is being trained.
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Montana
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 823
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JusticeZero wrote:
Honestly i'm okay with competition. Competition is a good thing. I am completely fine with being limited to a subset of valid techniques to fit in a competitive ruleset.

What annoys me is when I see people devoting large amounts of training time in an attempt to master invalid techniques. Learning how to turn your back to an opponent faster as a main defense is an invalid technique. Learning how to flick a foil in order to tap someone on the back of the head is an invalid technique. Spending hours and hours on mastering invalid technique is a complete mockery of the art that is being trained.


I'm in 100% agreement with this!
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maisweh
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 83


PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JusticeZero wrote:
Honestly i'm okay with competition. Competition is a good thing. I am completely fine with being limited to a subset of valid techniques to fit in a competitive ruleset.

What annoys me is when I see people devoting large amounts of training time in an attempt to master invalid techniques. Learning how to turn your back to an opponent faster as a main defense is an invalid technique. Learning how to flick a foil in order to tap someone on the back of the head is an invalid technique. Spending hours and hours on mastering invalid technique is a complete mockery of the art that is being trained.


its a game. play by the rules. if people want to devote their training to competition, then let them. most competitors i know never played any other sports in school or were the outcasts, so they finally found something they enjoy doing and can do it as a sport. i see plenty of invalid techniques practiced in regular "mainstream" arts. what i call invalid is stuff that probably wont work ever in a real event.
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And how do you know what works in a "real fight"? All sorts of strange things have lots of real application, and reality is not like a duelling match. Techniques made purely to play to a rule technicality irk me however. If I see it being done spontaneously, it's not a big deal, but if I see people drilling it a lot, it irritates the heck out of me. To me it feels a bit like "Well, the rules of basketball don't specifically say that the ball can't be caught by a remote control helicopter - so our school paid the engineering department to create an entire fleet of drones to deliver the ball to the hoop, and the drones are our core tactic. We spent the whole season training the intricacies of making passes to helicopter drones."
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maisweh
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 83


PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JusticeZero wrote:
And how do you know what works in a "real fight"? All sorts of strange things have lots of real application, and reality is not like a duelling match. Techniques made purely to play to a rule technicality irk me however. If I see it being done spontaneously, it's not a big deal, but if I see people drilling it a lot, it irritates the heck out of me. To me it feels a bit like "Well, the rules of basketball don't specifically say that the ball can't be caught by a remote control helicopter - so our school paid the engineering department to create an entire fleet of drones to deliver the ball to the hoop, and the drones are our core tactic. We spent the whole season training the intricacies of making passes to helicopter drones."



Because I've been in fights. So have you ever seen a crescent kick to disarm a gun or knife wielding opponent? i havent. have you ever seen a forearm block taught to defend a baseball bat? this is some of the junk being taught as self defense. the argument here is sport karate. Your correlation between basketball and sport karate hold no value, also. Do I teach or do I even like the kids who do flips and scream and use toothpick weapons? No, but its their choice and not mine. Have I ever seen someone teach to turn their back so they won't get hit? No. Because in 90% of leagues you can hit to the back of the head unless they're on the ground. Know what most, if not all sport karate schools teach? Front leg side kicks, front leg round kicks, blitzing which is just a back first reverse punch combo, and defensive side kicks. Also spin kicks. I have never seen or even heard of a school teaching to turn their back to avoid fighting, much less drilling it. If you have seen that, I dread what they will do in a real altercation
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