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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2373
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting a club at 1st dan Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:


If you do not gain the blessing of the organization in our style you can not use the name and you have no backing. Meaning your students ranks will be signed and certified only by you and not backed by your style/organization. This can be a tad tricky if your students ever decide to transfer to another Dojo and their rank is not accepted.


I've been doing some reaserch on this point, as my club is about to fold (see post in Karate forum), and I get the feeling from the input of others and post which relate to transferring belts from club to club, that in the real world, even in clubs ilaffiliated to the same governing body, that your belt is only really good in your own club and it's most likely that anyone starting another club is highly unlikely to take their belt with them. Seems almost to be considered an arrogance to assume you are any rank, even if it is officially graded and signed off, which makes me wonder what the point of having any official certification of grades in the martial arts if they are not going to be recognised outside of your own club.
Of course I could be wrong on that, but that's the impression I get.


It all depends on the organization and the MA itself. Karate is pretty tricky as there are so many styles of it that curricula donít match up very well from one place to another. Goju Ryu schools do different kata than Shotokan. Shotokan does different things than Wado Ryu. Wado Ryu does things differently than Kyokushin. Following this line of thought, you could be a 3rd dan in Goju Ryu and theoretically not know any Shotokan kata nor other standardized stuff. Even the kihon is somewhat different. If a student didnít know any Shotokan kata nor standardized stuff such as 1-step kumite, should that student be given a 3rd dan in Shotokan because he/she earned a 3rd dan elsewhere?

On the flip side of that, if a student earned a shodan in JR Ryu and there are 30 affiliated JR Ryu dojos, then said studentís shodan rank should be honored at any and all 30 affiliated JR Ryu dojos if he/she decides to train at any of those. Iím a 2nd kyu in Seido Juku. My 2nd kyu would be honored at every other Seido Juku dojo. So being from NY, if I moved to Hollywood, CA and started training at a Seido dojo there, Iíd pick up right where I left off. Iím sure the CI would make a phone call or the like to confirm my Iím not lying nor hiding anything shady though. But my 2nd kyu wouldnít transfer to the Shotokan dojo on the other end of my town because I donít know their curriculum for that rank.

Other MA have things far more consistent. As far as I know, Judo is pretty standardized everywhere. If youíre a sandan in Joe Smithís Judo club in NYC, youíre a sandan in practically any Judo club. Donít hold to that, but thatís the impression I get from judoka I know. BJJ is very similar as far as I know too. Youíll be scrutinized formally or informally, but if the student is being honest, their belts transfer pretty seemlessly as theyíre pretty much all on the same page.

Besides the student, rank and any other credentials are only as good as the person and/or organization granting them. Have a 6th dan under a person such as Mas Oyama carries a bit more weight overall than having a 6th dan under someone no oneís heard of. That person no oneís heard of may have very high standards and his students may be better than anyone else, but thereís going to be more scrutiny than coming from someone well known. Fair or unfair, thatís just the way the world works, inside and outside of MA.
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 71


PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that. In danger of going off topic, so will return to teaching under First Dan.
In our club, you can teach from third kyu, and I think one did in another city and managed to make it work. I suppose, for me, it's how well you relate to teaching, how well you know the syllabus, and most of all, how much you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it then no matter how good you are, there is no.point.
Of course there are other considerations. Will it get in the way of your training. I live in a rural area, and if I took on a club, short of joining another club quite a distance away in a different karate style, I would be teaching all the time with no one to train me. That would (and is) the biggest problem for me.
Then there is all the time taken up on the admin and the necessities such as safeguarding, first aid, promotion. That, I imagine, is enough to drive you up the wall if you don't enjoy it.
If you do, however, or even if you don't but can get it done effectively, then I imagine there's nothing better than having a club you can call your own.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting a club at 1st dan Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:


If you do not gain the blessing of the organization in our style you can not use the name and you have no backing. Meaning your students ranks will be signed and certified only by you and not backed by your style/organization. This can be a tad tricky if your students ever decide to transfer to another Dojo and their rank is not accepted.


I've been doing some reaserch on this point, as my club is about to fold (see post in Karate forum), and I get the feeling from the input of others and post which relate to transferring belts from club to club, that in the real world, even in clubs ilaffiliated to the same governing body, that your belt is only really good in your own club and it's most likely that anyone starting another club is highly unlikely to take their belt with them. Seems almost to be considered an arrogance to assume you are any rank, even if it is officially graded and signed off, which makes me wonder what the point of having any official certification of grades in the martial arts if they are not going to be recognised outside of your own club.
Of course I could be wrong on that, but that's the impression I get.


That is not entirely true across the board. In my organization our grades are honored because our organization is relatively small (500+) and standards are exactly the same across the board. However in other instances what is taught and the requirements and standards under which it is taught can differ from school to school in some organizations and in that there are no guarantees of cross over. Some arts/styles have many organizations representing them and in that have different requirements, standards and curriculum. In this example there should be no expectation of cross over even though in the same art/style.

When moving from one art to another there should never be any expectation of maintaining grade. New art = start from scratch.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
Thanks for that. In danger of going off topic, so will return to teaching under First Dan.
In our club, you can teach from third kyu, and I think one did in another city and managed to make it work. I suppose, for me, it's how well you relate to teaching, how well you know the syllabus, and most of all, how much you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it then no matter how good you are, there is no.point.
Of course there are other considerations. Will it get in the way of your training. I live in a rural area, and if I took on a club, short of joining another club quite a distance away in a different karate style, I would be teaching all the time with no one to train me. That would (and is) the biggest problem for me.
Then there is all the time taken up on the admin and the necessities such as safeguarding, first aid, promotion. That, I imagine, is enough to drive you up the wall if you don't enjoy it.
If you do, however, or even if you don't but can get it done effectively, then I imagine there's nothing better than having a club you can call your own.


However many arts/organizations have a requirements in place to teach. In our art you are not permitted to teach until Sandan. In others you can start teaching at Ikkyu.

It's really based on your organizations/styles/arts requirements and what they will and will not allow when it comes to grades and teaching.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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