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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
We currently have "one of those" students being discussed in my class right now. She's young, overweight and not that athletic... whines about stretching... whines about forms... interrupts when adults are talking, etc.

At any rate, a transformation was made 2 weeks ago. After a couple weeks of trying, she FINALLY broke a board with a front kick at the end of class. This happened maybe 2 weeks ago. Since then, she hasn't missed a class (and appears to be having fun!) The whining was greatly reduced and it seems like she might be practicing more at home.

While this is anecdotal, I find it encouraging. Yeah, people are exercising less and instant gratification is an issue. This reinforced the idea that we can still reach the young people, but we might need to demonstrate some patience and meet them where they're at. What will this look like in the martial arts class? I'm not entirely sure. I just know that things which worked 20 years ago might not work today.


Adults don’t like to do things they’re not good at, and kids don’t either. The student you mentioned saw actual success, and therefore was most likely motivated by it. Most likely she realized that she could actually break the board and it’s not impossible to do, so she wants to do it again. The more successes she actually sees, the more motivated she’ll become.

Part of the problem is everything has become all or nothing. Parents make success too easy (everyone gets a trophy). And when success doesn’t come immediately, parents make excuses and/or allow the kid to make excuses and quit. Somehow people got the idea in their head that hard work ALWAYS equals success, so if you’re not immediately successful, it’s not worth it.

Maybe I’m weird, but failure motivated me far more than success ever did. In my first stint in karate, we’d spar bare knuckle immediately (Kyokushin offshoot). My first night on the floor, I sparred with several higher ranks - mainly brown belts and my sensei. I had quite a few bumps and bruises. My thought: “I need to get better at this.” 90% of people’s thought: “I’m never coming back!”

In hindsight, what was done wasn’t the best approach.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 871
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are working a lot with "mindsets" at the college where I teach (It's actually a nation-wide movement.) There are many different kinds of mindsets, and each type has its place in a classroom, and in everyday life.

The mindsets I'm working on most for my classes are the growth mindset and the mindset of belonging. In short, we try to instill that mistakes are okay, and are a normal and required part of learning (growth.) Also, students frequently feel that they don't belong in the classroom, for various reasons. We try to create an environment where students feel welcome, respected and connected to others at the school.

Keep in mind that of this can be done without lowering standards. It might require instructors and staff to be more mindful of how they talk to students, and maybe modifying the way things are taught a bit. All of it really does seem to be perfectly aligned with the tenets of Tae Kwon Do, too!
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1328
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
We currently have "one of those" students being discussed in my class right now. She's young, overweight and not that athletic... whines about stretching... whines about forms... interrupts when adults are talking, etc.

At any rate, a transformation was made 2 weeks ago. After a couple weeks of trying, she FINALLY broke a board with a front kick at the end of class. This happened maybe 2 weeks ago. Since then, she hasn't missed a class (and appears to be having fun!) The whining was greatly reduced and it seems like she might be practicing more at home.

While this is anecdotal, I find it encouraging. Yeah, people are exercising less and instant gratification is an issue. This reinforced the idea that we can still reach the young people, but we might need to demonstrate some patience and meet them where they're at. What will this look like in the martial arts class? I'm not entirely sure. I just know that things which worked 20 years ago might not work today.


It really depends on how you are brought up. 20 years ago or 100 years ago, kids are kids and people are people. Nothing has changed except a movement to PC.

Instilling respect, morals, integrity, humility, empathy, drive and work ethic in our kids is not achieved by meeting them were they are at. As a parent it is my responsibility to teach my kids, not meet them were they are at. As a teacher the same goes.

Yes I'm older than most here on the forums but there is a simple translation to raising a good human being and I'm sorry but meeting them were their at is never the path. Its our responsibility to teach right and wrong not to entertain the gray because its the new fad.

Might not be popular these days but there it is.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1865


PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3265302/Teenagers-are-less-intelligent-than-a-generation-ago-claims-study.html

Teenagers are less intelligent than a generation ago, claims study



By Charlotte Bailey
1:51AM GMT 27 Oct 2008


The number of exceptionally bright teenagers is significantly lower than a generation ago, a new study claims.


The most intelligent 14-year-old in 2008 is now only on a par with the brightest 12-year-old in 1976, according to the findings.

Researchers at King's College, London, asked 800 children aged 13 and 14 to take a series of tests which measured their understanding of abstract scientific concepts such as volume, density, quantity and weight.

The results were compared with a similar exercise in 1976.

In a test known as the pendulum test just over one in ten were found to have reached top grades which demanded a 'higher level of thinking', a significant drop from the 1976 result of one in four.

In a second test, which assessed mathematical thinking skills, one in five youngsters in 1976 had achieved high grades whereas the figure from the most recent study was only one in 20.

But average achievement was found to be similar in teenagers from both generations.

Professor Michael Shayar, who led the study, said: "The pendulum test does not require any knowledge of science at all. It looks at how people can deal with complex information and sort it out for themselves."

He believes that the decline in brainpower has happened over the last ten to 15 years and could be a result of national curriculum targets which drill children for tests as well as changes in children's leisure activities, such as an increase in computer games and television watching.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 871
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
singularity6 wrote:
We currently have "one of those" students being discussed in my class right now. She's young, overweight and not that athletic... whines about stretching... whines about forms... interrupts when adults are talking, etc.

At any rate, a transformation was made 2 weeks ago. After a couple weeks of trying, she FINALLY broke a board with a front kick at the end of class. This happened maybe 2 weeks ago. Since then, she hasn't missed a class (and appears to be having fun!) The whining was greatly reduced and it seems like she might be practicing more at home.

While this is anecdotal, I find it encouraging. Yeah, people are exercising less and instant gratification is an issue. This reinforced the idea that we can still reach the young people, but we might need to demonstrate some patience and meet them where they're at. What will this look like in the martial arts class? I'm not entirely sure. I just know that things which worked 20 years ago might not work today.


It really depends on how you are brought up. 20 years ago or 100 years ago, kids are kids and people are people. Nothing has changed except a movement to PC.

Instilling respect, morals, integrity, humility, empathy, drive and work ethic in our kids is not achieved by meeting them were they are at. As a parent it is my responsibility to teach my kids, not meet them were they are at. As a teacher the same goes.

Yes I'm older than most here on the forums but there is a simple translation to raising a good human being and I'm sorry but meeting them were their at is never the path. Its our responsibility to teach right and wrong not to entertain the gray because its the new fad.

Might not be popular these days but there it is.


A response to the bit in bold: Parenting and teaching are quite different. Sometimes us teachers have to make up for poor parenting. Not all students enter the class room with the same skill set. Teachers who refuse to meet students where they're at might as well not teach. Please keep in mind that this isn't justifying repeated insolent behavior or sheer lack of effort on the students part.

There are no perfect students out there, and there are no perfect teachers. We'd all do well to remind ourselves of this from time to time.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1328
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
A response to the bit in bold: Parenting and teaching are quite different. Sometimes us teachers have to make up for poor parenting. Not all students enter the class room with the same skill set. Teachers who refuse to meet students where they're at might as well not teach. Please keep in mind that this isn't justifying repeated insolent behavior or sheer lack of effort on the students part.


To the bold - I understand where you are coming from but the way I was brought up is that the parent is the first teacher and has more responsibility towards their child's learning than anyone else. I feel that most parents, as you are pointing out, think that it is others responsibility to teach and make sure their child's growth is on track. I do not share this sentiment. The parent is the beginning and the end to the child's growth both physically and mentally. The problem is that most parents check out and leave others to raise their children. Its the new PC. Don't question the child's teachers or what they are teaching and don't pay attention to the man/women behind the curtain. I on the other hand think that questioning everything and taking an active role in your child's education is the parents responsibility not the teachers. I am not of the mind set that it takes a village.

To the underlined - I can see where you are going with this and I understand. My point is that I will not bow down to the needs of a insolent spoiled brat that was told all their lives that their way is the only way. In my class my way is the only way. I do not make concessions for laziness, back talking, disrespect or know it all's. I am not perfect and never claimed to be but I have knowledge that the student doesn't have. I have paid in blood,sweat, tears and many many years to acquire said knowledge. Having said that the student is a mushy mess of no skill/no knowledge. I see no reason to meet them on their terms in this equation. If they wish to learn they will learn my way not the way they wish to learn or they can find another school and another Shinshii.

This may seem harsh but I have seen this go both ways. Starting out one of my senior students was a pleaser. The students ran over him like a mack truck. His students skill and knowledge level at a give point was not even half of my students because he bowed down to the needs/wishes of his students instead of teaching and them learning. Allowing a student to dictate the way class is taught never works. They have no knowledge to base their decisions from whereas the teach does.

Me I don't assume they know whats the best way to learn from me. I teach them as I have been taught and that's that. There is never any debate.

May seem harsh but it works.

singularity6 wrote:
There are no perfect students out there, and there are no perfect teachers. We'd all do well to remind ourselves of this from time to time.


I think this goes without question. We all aspire to be better everyday and wish to attain our own personal perfection within the art and all that we do. This is a never ending journey.

Having said that they do not have to be perfect. This is why we train because we are not perfect. If we were there would be no reason to train. I am by no means perfect nor do I know everything. I am a student of the art and as such maintain an open mind when learning from someone else and do not bring my own preconceived notions to class. This is part and parcel why I will not meet my students part way. They come to class to learn not to teach. If they could teach they wouldn't be coming to learn from me. Obviously I have something they want and in order to get it they must allow me to teach the way I know how to teach. This means the student doesn't dictate anything, they learn and that's it.

I know I probably come off as a know it all in this post or condescending to your points of view. I do not mean to. I speak my mind and am very direct and some times that can be taken the wrong way. I hope you understand where I'm coming from and are not taking this as a personal attack on you or your views. This is just the way I see things and it may not be the way for anyone else but that's what the forum is all about. Different people with different views. It's not that its my way or the highway but in class they come to learn my art. Respect to allow me to teach is just proper decorum for any student. Allowing them to dictate how I teach is not going to work if I hope to maintain the integrity of the art and the way it's taught. I take teaching and passing on the art that I love very seriously, maybe to seriously for this generation but that's me and I doubt that will ever change.

Call me a dinosaur or out of date but I am not changing the way I teach for anyone. In fact I see this as the number one reason that the arts have declined into a mere sport. Students running the show and teachers trying to pacify and cow down to them. It's not for me and I will never meet them on their terms if it means changing the way the art is taught.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 871
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too see where you're coming from. Yeah, I don't think students should be calling the show. I also believe that some people simply aren't cut out for _________ (fill in the blank with whatever subject) and sometimes need to be guided to do something else, though this number is probably fairly small.

Please bear in mind that I do not think we should lessen curriculum, or allow students to call the shots. I do believe in scaffolding when teaching. Some students might need a bit more support when they first start out, and I do my best to give them what they need (within reason, of course.) Over time, the supports are removed one-by-one, until the student is able to work on their own. I suspect you, and everyone else here who teaches does the same, to some degree.

Quote:
I know I probably come off as a know it all in this post or condescending to your points of view.


You don't. You just sound passionate. And for what it's worth, I teach math for a living... I've had people be "much more direct" in their manner when speaking to me!
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to follow Tommy Lasorda’s approach when teach. And parenting, managing staff, etc...

(Paraphrased) “Managing a ball club is like holding a dove in your hands. Hold it too tightly, and you’ll suffocate it. Hold it too loosely, and it’ll fly away.”
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1328
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
I too see where you're coming from. Yeah, I don't think students should be calling the show. I also believe that some people simply aren't cut out for _________ (fill in the blank with whatever subject) and sometimes need to be guided to do something else, though this number is probably fairly small.

Please bear in mind that I do not think we should lessen curriculum, or allow students to call the shots. I do believe in scaffolding when teaching. Some students might need a bit more support when they first start out, and I do my best to give them what they need (within reason, of course.) Over time, the supports are removed one-by-one, until the student is able to work on their own. I suspect you, and everyone else here who teaches does the same, to some degree.

Quote:
I know I probably come off as a know it all in this post or condescending to your points of view.


You don't. You just sound passionate. And for what it's worth, I teach math for a living... I've had people be "much more direct" in their manner when speaking to me!


I appreciate that. I tend to be very direct and speak my mind and this sometimes comes off... well jerkish or as a know it all type.

I'm really not that way, in fact I am a student in every sense of the word. But you're right I am very passionate about my art.

And I respect anyone that is willing to teach math or any other subject to children as a profession. I personally would love the teaching part but would not have the patience to put up with some of the parents and frankly some of the students as well. One of the reasons I only teach adults.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 871
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I teach at a college, and I chose college because I didn't want to deal with the parents. Unfortunately, some of my students act like children.
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(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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