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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Submission elitism... Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:

Maybe. Ironically, I agree with you on a personal level. I have seen far more success out of people with wrestling backgrounds than I have out of people that just did a little JiuJitsu, both in Judo and in MMA, but where, for me the issue lies, is in not teaching the correct attitude about fighting. At the end of the day, there is no penalty for negative play in most competitive grappling outside Wrestling and Judo. BJJ really doesn't penalize it. EBI and Polaris certainly don't. And Metamoris seems set up almost to encourage such things.


Absolutely! That's where I'm getting at. The "problem" with these grappling competitions is that they ignore step one: making your opponent fight. This is a serious issue in MMA where BJJ guys cant get the fight to the ground, or stay there once they do. Even worse is guys who do, but cant pass a guard on the ground because they've never had to against someone who would stand up given the space. They're so used to standing up, backing away, and trying to run all over.

Like you point out, this is more an issue with the fighters than the rules. I think Boxing would be less boring without Floyd Jr, but no one is going to change the rules to force you to engage more in boxing.

Tempest wrote:
In theory, I agree with Rener Gracie in his statements regarding becoming so comfortable in every position that it doesn't matter, but in practice I think you produce better fighters, quicker, if they learn to striver for dominance and never give anything to their opponent.

TJ-Jitsu wrote:

Not familiar with what he said, but theres a difference between being comfortable at every position and being good at every position. When you truly know what positional dominance means, it absolutely does matter which position you end up in. You may say "I'll take whatever gets me to the ground" and I'll agree with that, because that's what I do. Once I get there though I start to attack like a SOB to advance position. In a weird way though, submissions are positional advancements. Hopefully you start to understand when I say "positional dominance" it doesn't mean "top, pass, mount, back." It means getting to a position better than the previous one...

Rener has stated that if you develop your comfort and familiarity with a position to a high enough level, you can stay so relaxed in even the worst position that your opponent isn't really able to harm you. If you look at some of the draw's that the Gracies have had in Metamoris, you can see what they are talking about. I think it is great in theory, but doesn't really work if your opponent is actually as good as you are on the mat.

Tempest wrote:

That being said, I watched this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fjEiMmQbds

And thought that the sub only looked pretty good there.

TJ-Jitsu wrote:

Indeed. Fighters make for good fights, not rulesets. Consider Mickey Ward boxing matches- hes always been entertaining as has Manny Pacquio, despite "all the rules" boxing has. Then you have early MMA with no rules, and yet many fights were snooze fests....

That's the inherent problem- you cant force someone to fight in an entertaining matter.


Fighting isn't just about entertainment. The 2 are inexorably linked, because the money from the spectacle is needed to fuel the rest of it, but that isn't what it is about.
After watching a few more sub-only matches, I am seeing a few issues with the judging, but not as many as I would have anticipated.
I do think that they need to make sure that the referees are clear on the nuance that without forcing an actual defense on the part of the opponent, then a sub attempt should not really count. IMO that should be the extent of it. No breaking of balance, posture, or forced limb adjustment? No points.
That would clear up a LOT of the issues you mentioned earlier with sub only.
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